Episode 170 AP Table Talk: Variable Setup

AP Table Talk: Variable Setup

Episode Summary:

In this episode of AP Table Talk, Brian and Dave dig into the variable setup mechanic, where the starting game state changes from play to play through randomized boards, player setups, resources, and objectives. From foundational classics like Risk, Catan, and Dominion to favorites like Istanbul, Hey, That's My Fish!, Waddle, Inis, and Sagrada, they debate where the boundary of the mechanic really lies - whether shuffled markets, randomized roles, and end game bonuses truly count - and explore how variable setup supports replayability, fresh puzzles, and balance between new and experienced players. Along the way, they cover the challenges of teaching highly variable games, front-loaded cognitive load in opening turns, variance that can feel empty in games like Wingspan, and bonus stories about Maatatahay, The Quest for El Dorado, Sungka, and Chess960.

(0:12 - 0:29)

Brian Eng:

Hello and welcome to AP Table Talk, a podcast where we explore board games and what makes them interesting to us. As always, I'm your host, Brian, and joining me with his own uniquely randomized starting conditions, my co-host Dave Eng.

Dave Eng:

What's up, Bri?

Brian Eng:

Yeah. We're back for another episode.

(0:30 - 0:44)

Dave Eng:

Another episode of AP Table Talk. And it's true. I do bring a unique starting condition to every single episode, this one included.

Brian Eng:

Yes. Are you a plus three to coffee today?

Dave Eng:

Yes, plus three to coffee, plus four to jitters, zero charisma.

(0:47 - 1:07)

Brian Eng:

So what's our episode mechanic today?

Dave Eng:

All right. So for this episode of AP Table Talk, we are going to be discussing the variable setup mechanic. So if you have not listened to AP Table Talk before, I introduce the mechanic, Brian, it's up to you now to give your own personal definition of what you think the mechanic is.

(1:07 - 1:38)

Brian Eng:

Okay. So, this one is pretty self-defining I found. So, I will say I did end up just kind of looking at the BGG definition because I think we have more to talk about than just defining it. But as a quick thing, yeah, if I was going to give a quick definition, it's basically anything or any changes to the starting setup or state of the game in between plays that change in between plays would be variable setup.

(1:39 - 2:14)

Dave Eng:

All right. Yeah, that's true. That's pretty close to what they say on the website. So, I'm going to then give the official definition from bgg.com, BoardGameGeek. And it is, "The starting game state varies from game to game through changes to shared game components like the map and/or changes to starting player setups, resources, objectives, et cetera." So no, Brian, when we talked about this before, we had a lot to share on variable setup, which I think we'll get up into this episode because it's a lot more complex and I think than this definition offers.

(2:14 - 5:31)

Brian Eng:

Yeah. And actually, before we even move on, I know we don't usually get into it in the definition part of our podcast here, but I think maybe let's start here because I kind of had to define what I considered to be variable setup. So, I split it up first into two categories. One is variation to the player setup and the other being variation in the common space, like the board setup or-

Dave Eng:

The goals.

Brian Eng:

... Game goals, things like that, that affect all the players. And what I mean by we kind of get into it is there's certain things that I would say fit the definition of variable setup, but that element on its own, if that was the only thing in the game, I didn't really consider it as a variable setup game. So, for example, I'll give one that we talked about when you have a, so this is in the common space, when you have a market of cards that are random each game, I don't consider that variable setup.

And I could even fit that one into technically not variable because the setup is that you have a market of five random cards, for example. So that does not change. It's just the fact that they're random, which yes, I think it does actually, it is considered variable setup, but to me it's like that doesn't fit in the spirit of what I think variable setup game is.

Dave Eng:

Mm-hmm. And then can I add on that, Brian?

Brian Eng:

Yeah, go ahead.

Dave Eng:

Because one of the games that we had played most recently when I came up to visit was we played a trick-taking game called Stick'em. And for any card game where you're dealing out a known number of cards, we talked about that could also be considered variable setup, but that is also part of the game of just you know these cards are in the deck, you're just going to randomly deal them out.

Brian Eng:

Right. And again, I don't consider that as a variable setup, randomly dealt cards to people. I went even further. If the players set up units beforehand and there's fixed rules to that, I don't even consider that kind of variable setup. It is, but I don't consider that part of the setup of the game. I consider that part of the game is doing that part.

Dave Eng:

Mm-hmm. Okay. All right.

Brian Eng:

And again, it gets kind of nitpicky. So for example, I guess it is part of the setup, a very simple example, Battleship. So you set up your ships beforehand and it's in a whatever random way, but I wouldn't call that game a variable setup game. I don't know.

(5:32 - 6:35)

I guess that falls more in a maybe, but even a game Star Wars: Rebellion where you pick your rebel base. I don't consider that. There's other reasons that game might be variable setup, but not that because you've always got to pick a rebel base, right?

Dave Eng:

Mm-hmm.

Brian Eng:

So, to me, it falls in the same thing as a market where it's like, yes, the cards are random, but you always have the market.

Dave Eng:

Yeah. Yeah. I feel, Bri, that we need to operationalize the definition because the way we view it right now, it's too wide, right?

Brian Eng:

Yeah.

Dave Eng:

You're going to have way too many games.

Brian Eng:

Almost every game can sort of fall into it. Well, not every game, but it is just ... And that's part of the reason I narrowed the scope down. So, some of the things that I was more on the fence about was things like, and maybe I'll take your take on it. So, things like when there's player roles that are handed out, like games with a traitor mechanic, would you consider that a variable setup?

Dave Eng:

Let's say they're randomized or you get to pick.

Brian Eng:

So, think of Werewolf, for example.

(6:35 - 7:54)

Dave Eng:

Going on a very strict definition, I would say yes, but it's variable.

Brian Eng:

All these things I would say by the strict definition technically are variable setup, but whether or not I would consider it a variable setup game or one that I'd focus on when talking about variable setup.

Dave Eng:

Yeah, I would consider that the roles to be variable setup, even though for Werewolf, you don't really get to choose. You just get handed a role. Yeah.

Brian Eng:

So see, that's one where maybe because I would say I agree with you. In Werewolf, I would say that's a variable setup game. But in a game like Battlestar Galactica, I don't consider it. And I don't know why, but-

Dave Eng:

In Battlestar, it could change, right? I guess in certain setups of Werewolf, it also could change. In Battlestar, you could be both a Cylon and a human or think you're human, but actually become a Cylon later. Isn't there a role like that?

Brian Eng:

Sympathizer, yeah.

Dave Eng:

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Eng:

And it depends on the player count, but it's fixed to the player count.

Dave Eng:

Mm-hmm.

(7:54 - 9:08)

Brian Eng:

Yeah. There's certain ones that get murky. Another one was when the end game bonuses are randomized. So I'm thinking Terraforming Mars comes to mind, or what is it? The Isle of Skye. Did you play that one?

Dave Eng:

Yep, I play that one. I'm playing a game online on BGA right now called Verdant that has randomized endgame bonuses. A lot of games have randomized.

Brian Eng:

That's another one where it's kind of a maybe to me. Some games I consider it, some games I don't. And then the only one that is a specific thing I could define that is I always consider it at a variable setup game is when the board layout is randomized. So, we played this as part of our games that we were playing for this mechanic as five tribes. That one to me, no doubt about it, that's definitely variable setup game.

Dave Eng:

Take a bunch of colored maples and randomize them and dump them on board.

(9:08 - 9:31)

Brian Eng:

There's a lot of stuff in that that's randomized, but the aspect of it where you lay out the tiles are randomized each time and it changes the game. That to me is my first kind of ... I usually have a game as an example of it in the defining part, and I had five tribes in there. I think that was one of the early ones. But yeah, so that was the only type of variable setup that I was like, "Yeah, I can't think of a game where it's not variable setup to do that."

Dave Eng:

It's tough. I agree with you. I think that we need to tighten up the definition a little bit, but I think that we're actually going to be talking about that later on of this episode because there's sometimes where I feel like it's an edge case and other times where I feel like it-

(9:31 - 9:40)

Brian Eng:

Yeah. Yeah. I found myself thinking that a lot of cases where I wasn't sure there was some overlap with variable player powers which we've done in a previous session.

(9:41 - 10:47)

Dave Eng:

Yes, it's true. We talked Werewolf. You also talked about Battlestar.

Brian Eng:

Right. But then again, there's ones where I think Viticulture has the, you pick the mama and papa thing. I think that's a good execution of the variable setup. Anyways, yeah, I guess we can get deeper into it as we get into our examples here, our major examples section, unless you had anything else to add.

Dave Eng:

No, I'm anxious to get into this and talk about major examples. So, if you're listening to AP Table Talk for the first time, that first section is just introduction, overview of the mechanic, et cetera. We're going to go into our second section, which is the major examples. So, here's where we're going to be talking about our first game with this mechanic, our favorite game, and then our most noteworthy or biggest mechanic. Brian and I both have d20s and we're going to roll them and whoever rolls the highest is going to lead off because they have initiatives. So, Brian, my die is ready. Is your die ready?

Brian Eng:

All right. I am ready.

Dave Eng:

All right. Three, two, one, roll.

Brian Eng:

I got 13.

(10:48 - 11:00)

Dave Eng:

I got an eight. So you're going to lead off.

(11:00 - 14:51)

Brian Eng:

All right. My initiative. Okay. So, we will start with the first variable setup game that we played. And I always try to think if I'm going to have overlap with you. So, I think that we may have some overlap.

Dave Eng:

Yeah, I feel that too.

Brian Eng:

So, for the first variable setup game that I played, I have Settlers of Catan, or I guess it's known as Catan now. So classic game, you race to build roads and settlements. You're trying to get, is it 10 victory points first by collecting and trading resources. And the variable setup is the board is 19 hex tiles that are pseudo randomly set up. There is a suggested beginner setup, I think. But generally, you can just kind of ... Now, I think this is a fault that some people do it.

You could just randomly set it up, but there are some rules to the randomization of how that's set up I think when you do randomize it. But anyways, I don't quite remember. And so obviously, the impact of that is it can change the scarcity of the resources. Again, it kind of dictates your strategy with your initial placement of your two settlements or whatever it is you do. So that was my first game that I, or the first game I could remember with variable that was a variable setup game.

Dave Eng:

Right, right. Over to me?

Brian Eng:

Yep.

Dave Eng:

Well, I thought this was going to happen, Brian. So I had three options to avoid overlap because one of the options was Catan, because it's also the number one rated game on board game for variable setup. But I did look this up and I confirmed it. The very first variable setup game I played is Risk.

Brian Eng:

Oh.

Dave Eng:

Right? Because the way that you, me, Chris and Greg played it, Chris is Brian's brother, Greg is my brother, is you did it the way where you have the deck of cards, the territory cards. You just deal that out and then after you're starting territory, and then you take turns placing your additional armies.

Brian Eng:

Oh, well, I definitely played that before I played Catan, so.

Dave Eng:

Yeah. So I would say it's Risk, right?

Brian Eng:

Yeah, I didn't think about Risk. I was avoiding things. Again, when we talked about Battleship and stuff, I was avoiding that. Yeah. You know what? I guess Risk, yeah. Definitely the way we played it would be variable setup.

Dave Eng:

But you know what? I would say it's kind of the opposite of Catan because Catan, you still have a little bit of agency because now that the board is set up-

Brian Eng:

Yeah, we play it. It's just like, there you go. Go to it.

Dave Eng:

... Yeah, that's where you're starting just like, "Oh, I only have-

Brian Eng:

To be totally screwed, but yeah.

Dave Eng:

Well, they don't have territories and none of them are connected and they're on all continents.

Brian Eng:

Where you just luck out and you get all of Australia.

Dave Eng:

Yeah, that was my strategy. You just lock down Australia, get that continent bonus and try to break out of there.

Brian Eng:

Oh, good times, good times.

Dave Eng:

Did you have a backup, Brian? Because I had Catan on my list. I had a third one too.

Brian Eng:

I don't have a backup, but it's another one where definitely there could be some overlap in some of the other categories. So if you have another one you want to say or if you want to save it, if it works for another one, it's up to you.

Dave Eng:

I'm not going to bring up this game in the other one, so I'll just say it here because I think that ... So Risk was the first one. Catan was the first modern renaissance board game that had the variable setup. But then I also listed Pandemic has variables set up in several different vectors.

So one of them was the infection deck. So with the cities that get infected throughout the game, the initial infected cities, the player roles too, you brought that up. Although it's been a long time since I played Pandemic, I forget if you just get dealt a role or if you get to see two roles and then choose them. You know what I mean?

Brian Eng:

I haven't played it too many times because it's cooperative, so.

(14:52 - 15:55)

Dave Eng:

Yeah, take that cooperative games. For those of you who are listening, we don't normally like cooperative games, although Brian and I did play a whole campaign of ... Oh, why am I blanking on it? The trick-taking game. The Crew.

Brian Eng:

The Crew. Yeah.

Dave Eng:

The whole campaign. 50 missions, I guess? Yeah.

Brian Eng:

Yeah. That was the start of me exploring some cooperatives because I also like Sky Team.

Dave Eng:

Yeah, that's right.

Brian Eng:

I play with my wife and Sail as well.

Dave Eng:

Mm-hmm. Experimenting with cooperatives.

Brian Eng:

Yes, yes. So Pandemic I had as a kind of a runner up in my most noteworthy.

Dave Eng:

Oh, I see. Okay.

Brian Eng:

In case we have some overlap there, which I guess we still might, but.

Dave Eng:

We're probably going to have overlap, but it's the ... which is funny because there's a lot of games with this mechanic, but I'm glad I was able to bring up Risk, but that's mine.

Brian Eng:

All right. So we'll move on to favorite.

Dave Eng:

Yep.

(15:57 - 17:59)

Brian Eng:

Okay. I have two in this one, mainly because I bring up one of them a lot. So the game I have down as my favorite is Istanbul.

Dave Eng:

Oh, okay. That's not what I thought you'd say.

Brian Eng:

Just another one I think I discovered with your buddies at PAX and I just clicked with it really quick. So in that game, you lead your merchant and your assistance through, I think it's a bazaar, and you're purchasing and upgrading and trading. It's another race you're trying to collect five rubies first. We actually discussed it in, was it our first episode? The Mancala?

Dave Eng:

Yeah, I think so.

Brian Eng:

Definitely one of the early episodes because you kind of move in a Mancala style and it is variable set up in that the board is 16 tiles in a four by four grid. This is without any of the expansions. And again, by randomizing that board, it has a major impact on how that game plays. I think the impact is much greater than in Catan because it's kind of a engine building game or route building, I guess.

You kind of want an efficient route to churn rubies. So by randomizing the board, that in conjunction with interfering with other players' merchants and assistance, it kind of destroys any kind of standard opening or standard strategy, and it gives a lot of friction in the way that you play. It changes the values of the bonus cards you can get in the game because some of them give you movement upgrades for example, but if you have a route that doesn't need it or a route that needs it more often, it could become more or less valuable.

It changes the importance of some of the spaces even because if there's a clump that work good together and one is way off on the other side of the board, you kind of devalue that space and things like that. So I think the impact of variable setup is large in that game.

Dave Eng:

Yeah, it's tenable.

(17:59 - 18:21)

Brian Eng:

Yeah. Do you want to do yours and then we'll see if ... I don't think you picked my backup one, but-

Dave Eng:

Okay.

Brian Eng:

Why don't you do yours and then ...

(18:21 - 19:03)

Dave Eng:

I have another game on my list. This one I had technically four games. Two of them are highly connected though, so I'll say that. My favorite one would be Hey, that's My Fish. Have you played that before?

Brian Eng:

Okay, yeah. Yes.

Dave Eng:

That's on Board Game Arena right now. I like that one because it's essentially like it's an area control game with penguins. If you've not played it before, there's hexes that you put randomized on the board, that's part of the variable setup. Those hexes have a number of fish on them, one, two, and three. And then you move your penguins throughout the board and whenever they leave a tile, you take that tile and you score it, but that tile also gets removed from the game and you can get just isolated in a game and not be able to score more points. I'd say that Hey, that's My Fish is my favorite, and then when I was doing research for this, someone else in the Banditos brought Waddle. Are you familiar with Waddle Bri? That's another all play-

Brian Eng:

No, I haven't played Waddle.

(19:05 - 19:33)

Dave Eng:

Little box game. Ironically, it's also Penguin-based, has variable setup, but Hey, that's My Fish is more about movement and capturing tiles. Waddle is more about area majority.

Brian Eng:

Gotcha.

Dave Eng:

So both have penguins, both have ice in them. I think both of them had fish, but I would say that those two are kind of tied from my favorite and I had some two runners up as well, but I'll throw back to you, Bri, to see if your runners up match any of my runners up.

Brian Eng:

I'm just going to add Waddle to my want to play here.

(19:34 - 20:06)

Dave Eng:

Yeah, that's a good one. That's a small box game, Brian. And you were talking about all your All Play small box games.

Brian Eng:

Yeah. I don't even remember seeing that one come up. Is that newer?

Dave Eng:

No, it's a few years old.

Brian Eng:

Oh okay.

Dave Eng:

For some reason I pass on it, but Steve in our group, he has it so I just play his copy.

Brian Eng:

Okay. So my other one I put in another game that I really enjoy. I don't get to play it as often as I'd like. It is Inis.

Dave Eng:

Ah, okay.

(20:08 - 22:10)

Brian Eng:

So that one is a card drafting kind of area influence game. I guess it's a dudes on the map game, but it doesn't play like a dudes on the map game. You're not really trying to wipe out opponents, which is kind of how I categorize the dudes on the map game. It's more about positioning and maneuvering. You win by achieving one or more. There's three different victory conditions and you want to achieve one or more of them and you have to maintain that victory condition for an entire round to win the game.

I won't go over what they are. If you're interested in that game, you can look it up. But it's another one where it's a modular board. It starts with drawing some random tiles based on the player count and then also drafting starting positions on those tiles, that draft is actually pretty huge in how the whole game starts out because the way the map builds out dynamically, it really creates opportunity to change where choke points are.

Again, those initial positions are very important and actually to the point where it's like you will ally with someone if they got a much better against someone if they got a much better starting position because it can make a big difference in that game. So that was my secondary favorite.

Dave Eng:

Nice. Okay. We'll go to my runners up here. Do you have another runner up after this one?

Brian Eng:

No, that's all I have for favorite.

Dave Eng:

Okay. So one of them I'll talk about first, and we talked about this in other podcast episodes for AP Table Talk, is Scythe. And I like Scythe because I was trying to explore what the variable setups are here. So we talked about The Castles of Burgundy before. Scythe also has pre-game variables set up in that you can choose a faction and then you can also choose a, I forget what they call it, an industrial map, but you basically match up the faction to the industrial map and those are your connected actions basically for the game.

Brian Eng:

Yeah, that's a feature in that game that I really liked the way it was implemented.

(22:10 - 22:24)

Dave Eng:

Mm-hmm. What I think is interesting though is that once you choose your faction and your map, you basically have to change wherever you're sitting around the table to sit in front of your factions because they go in a specific order around the board.

Brian Eng:

Yes.

(22:24 - 22:37)

Dave Eng:

But I also realized that they also have encounter cards. And I don't know if you consider encounter cards part of variable setup because those are shuffled. You don't know what they will be, you just know you're going to go and get an encounter when you move on to an encounter space.

(22:37 - 23:05)

Brian Eng:

Right. I don't know if that ... The encounter spaces are fixed on the board though, right?

Dave Eng:

Yes. Yep.

Brian Eng:

Again, it's technically variable setup, but I think I would consider it the other things where it's a randomization of cards, but the way you get them or the way they're laid out is essentially fixed.

Dave Eng:

Right, right. Okay, fair enough.

(23:05 - 23:14)

Brian Eng:

But I would agree it's a variable setup game. Just that the way you get the mixed player board combo thing is really cool. So when you pick your actions, you're picking a column that lines up with the two boards. And that's what is kind of the genius of that, I think.

(23:15 - 23:37)

Dave Eng:

Right, right. Yeah, you got a good, hopefully be trying to build a good synergy between them. So you get to take both actions each turn. And then I guess my third runner up, and I had added this late because Bri, I think I told you about it because I want a copy at the Granite Games Summit this past year's YINSH, Y-I-N-S-H.

Brian Eng:

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dave Eng:

The abstract game.

Brian Eng:

The abstract five-letter word games.

(23:38 - 24:07)

Dave Eng:

Yeah, exactly. This one is the rings that are black and white and then you want to get five tokens of your color in a row so that you can score a ring. But I don't know if we'll talk about this here, Bri, or later, but the variable setup is the fact that at the beginning of the game before you started playing, you and your opponent draft positions on the board. You place your ring on the board and then your opponent places the ring, and then you place the ring until all five rings are out. And then once they are, that's the setup and then you begin the game.

(24:08 - 24:41)

Brian Eng:

Okay. So I think we kind of briefly touched on this when we were talking about what qualifies in our conversation prepping for podcast in that whether that falls under the variable setup or if that's part of the game.

Dave Eng:

Yeah. So this one, it can go either way.

Brian Eng:

Because I almost feel like that is part of the game. The game has now begun and the draft is part of the game. But again, I think it can go either way.

(24:41 - 24:59)

Dave Eng:

Yeah. I would consider ... I think this one's kind of both. Yes, that is part of the setup, but it is also really important for play because it sets up how you're going to play the game.

(25:00 - 25:51)

Brian Eng:

You mentioned Scythe. I actually had on the games I was kind of looking at, but I haven't played it enough. Expeditions, which is kind of the spiritual sequel to Scythe. I don't know if you've played that yet.

Dave Eng:

I think, do I own this? I don't even know.

Brian Eng:

You might have just because of how much you like Scythe.

Dave Eng:

I don't own it. According to BoardGameGeek, I don't own it.

Brian Eng:

So, it exists in the same universe, but it's a different game than Scythe. And that again has a randomized board setup, but it is done in tiers. There's tier one tiles, tier two tiles, tier three tiles, and they're randomly placed in a fixed pattern, but the cards are upside down because you actually explore the tiles as you move around. I hadn't played it enough to put it in favorite game or anything like that. I wouldn't call it the most noteworthy or anything like that, but it was definitely one I was looking at as a good example of a variable setup game.

(25:54 - 26:12)

Dave Eng:

Right. Right. Now you just reminded me, I have it on my want list, so I'm going to have to try to find it.

Brian Eng:

I have it. So next time you're here, we should play it.

Dave Eng:

Okay. Is it good at two?

Brian Eng:

I don't remember.

Dave Eng:

I'm looking at it on board game geek, five.

Brian Eng:

It's probably not ideal at two, but I don't know if it'd be bad at two. It

Dave Eng:

Says community's best between one and three players.

(26:12 - 26:28)

Brian Eng:

Oh, one and three. Okay. Yeah. So you know what? It's a Stonemaier Games so it'll have an Automa, I'm sure.

Dave Eng:

Yeah.

Brian Eng:

Because they definitely do that for a lot of their games. But I think it would be okay at two.

Dave Eng:

Yep. All right. Add it to the list. We'll do it.

(26:28 - 26:35)

Brian Eng:

Okay. Okay, so that was favorite game.

Dave Eng:

Mm-hmm.

Brian Eng:

We'll move on to the most noteworthy or biggest.

(26:35 - 26:52)

Dave Eng:

Yes. And it is your initiative.

(26:52 - 27:03)

Brian Eng:

Okay. So, I didn't end up putting Catan in this category because I think that the game I chose is bigger in terms of a variable setup game. I can't remember if we've talked about this game before. We probably have, but I'm not a huge fan of it, but I know it has a very big following for the people who like it. And that is Dominion, the OG deck builder game.

(27:03 - 27:31)

So, in that game, each turn you're using the cards in your hand to play actions, to buy more cards, and then you discard whatever you don't use and draw a new hand. Again, that's the basic rules of deck builder games. To win, you want to buy the high value, I think they're the greens, the high value victory point cards, the victory cards, but those cards don't have abilities.

(27:31 - 28:06)

So, as you buy them, you clog up your deck. So, it's all about that timing of when do you start buying them? The other game players at the most victory points wins. So, the variable setup in this game, outside of the standard cards, the rest of ... So, this game is literally just cards. It's a market of cards. And that market, it can be changed every game. So there's 10 card types used in a game.

(28:07 - 28:38)

The base game comes with 25 different card types. So, when you do the math, that's like three million combos, but that game has a huge following. And again, I don't play it a ton, so I have to look it up. But as of 2024, there are 16 major expansions for that game, which brings the total to 440 different unique card types, and you pick 10 each game. So that's over 25 quadrillion combos.

Dave Eng:

Yeah, you'll never go into it.

(28:38 - 29:19)

Brian Eng:

And actually, there's more because I think they've introduced other mechanics into the game besides just different things. So again, you definitely have a lot of variety. If you're talking about variable setup adding variety to games, it definitely does that. And then now going back to how it actually impacts that game, this game, definitely there cannot be one main strategy. There's the idea of it comes down to when to buy victory points, but because the card combos can be completely different from game to game, there isn't really one true path. I think it's one of the most pure efficiency puzzles. So yeah, that was my most noteworthy variable setup game.

(29:20 - 29:26)

Dave Eng:

All right. You have a runner up too? I do not.

Brian Eng:

That was the one that definitely came to mind for me.

(29:27 - 29:50)

Dave Eng:

Okay. So I've got two. I'll go through them, but before I do that, I want to point out that the strategy that I use for Dominion is the big money strategy, which is you just use your cards and then when you can buy a bigger gold value card to increase your buying power, you get that. And then when you can buy a Victory Point card, you just do that and you just keep doing that until you can't buy anything more. The money strategy.

(29:50 - 29:56)

Brian Eng:

You buy gold and unless you can buy a Victory Point, then you buy a Victory Point.

(29:56 - 30:15)

Dave Eng:

Exactly. Yeah. And then you just run through that. It's the most boring strategy, but I played Dominion with other people that are really into Dominion and my head's kind of spinning. I'm just going big money strategy guys because I understand that strategy. Although the other ones that give you additional actions or ability to-

(30:15 - 30:20)

Brian Eng:

That would probably be the ... If the card is in there that does that, I lean towards action economy in games a lot.

Dave Eng:

Yeah. I want more actions.

Brian Eng:

Yes.

(30:21 - 30:28)

Dave Eng:

Take an action to draw an action.

Brian Eng:

Yes. I want my turn to just dominate everyone else's turn so that they're getting bored and stop paying attention.

(30:30 - 30:42)

Dave Eng:

I forget the name of the YouTuber, the one who's making fun of magic players with the Black Brie. Do you remember this YouTube video?

Brian Eng:

No.

(30:42 - 30:48)

Dave Eng:

I got to look it up now. Oh, it's ProZD. You know him?

(30:48 - 30:59)

Brian Eng:

Oh, okay. I know the YouTuber. I don't think I've seen that video, but I'll have to look at it.

(31:00 - 31:08)

Dave Eng:

The name of the video is when you have a really good turn in a card game. He's basically making one of the Black Lotus by talking about the Black Brie because all the magic cards are dairy focused. Anyway, I digress. So number one, most noteworthy biggest game with variable setup for me, and I thought we would double up on this, is Sagrada.

(31:09 - 31:19)

Brian Eng:

Oh, okay. Okay.

(31:19 - 31:48)

Dave Eng:

And I say Sagrada because when I'm trying to introduce it to people, I say it's kind of like Sudoku, but with numbers and colors. So if you are listening to AP Table Talk and you don't know Sudoku, Sudoku is a dice drafting and placement game. It's based on Sagrada Familia, which is a Basilica in Spain, I believe. But anyway, you're building stained-glass windows. That's the theme for the game.

(31:49 - 32:14)

And like Sudoku and other puzzly games like this, you cannot have the same number or the same color adjacent to each other. So you have to try to build these windows with that in mind. But the variable setup comes in multiple different ways. The first way is that you get to choose what window you will work on for your game. So that window will have a variable number of victory points for you if you complete it. But the tougher windows also give you little ponds that allow you to use tools in the game. The tools are another variable setup. Different tools allow you to break some rules in the game.

(32:14 - 32:54)

And then there's other variable options. And Bri, you talked about this before with a private objective card and public objective cards. They may or may not contribute to variable setup, but it is there in order to change up the game. And then the last variable piece, which I don't think is part of variable setup, is that you take dice out of the bag twice as many dice as there are players, and then you roll all of them and then people draft them and it's a snake draft so that the last player gets to draft two of them and it goes back around so that you get to draft additional dice and put them in your window. But for me, I think Sagrada is the biggest and most noteworthy because it took a concept kind of like Sudoku and just kind of made it with cool colored dice.

(32:55 - 33:05)

Brian Eng:

Yeah. I know that game got really popular, but I think I didn't click because I think you have the copy that I played first.

Dave Eng:

The original copy.

(33:05 - 33:08)

Brian Eng:

I don't know. Something about it. It just didn't click with me, I think.

Dave Eng:

It's because you can't attack anyone, Brian.

Brian Eng:

Yeah, maybe that's-

Dave Eng:

It's just drafting.

(33:08 - 33:13)

Brian Eng:

... There's not enough take that.

Dave Eng:

There's no take that. The only take that is that-

(33:13 - 33:19)

Brian Eng:

They add throwing dice directly at people.

Dave Eng:

... Yeah. I remember you, Violet liked that. I remember when we played.

(33:19 - 33:24)

Brian Eng:

Yeah, Violet would like that game.

(33:24 - 33:31)

Dave Eng:

But you did not like it because you're like, "There's no way for me to hurt other people in this game. So I don't like it."

Brian Eng:

Yes. Joking aside, I think it just felt a little too solitaire to me.

Dave Eng:

It's very solitaire.                            

(33:31 - 33:47)

Brian Eng:

Yeah. So, I think that's why it didn't click with me. And so, I probably didn't think of it for that reason. Although I'm not huge on Dominion either, but Dominion's just such one of those foundational games.

Dave Eng:

Yeah, I'd say so. But Dominion has take that cards.

(33:47 - 33:51)

Brian Eng:

Yeah, Dominion does have player interaction for sure.

(33:52 - 34:29)

Dave Eng:

Right, right, right. So that was Sagrada. And then my second runner up, and this is the game I reference regularly when someone asks me, what is the most Eurogame? And my answer is always the Castles of Burgundy, that's my quintessential Eurogame. And we talked a little bit about it at the beginning. And I'd say that based on your definition, Bri, the only variable set up The Castles of Burgundy is the player map, which is a lot like the glass window for Sagrada in that you just make sure everyone has the same map, and that's it. Everything else gets randomized, where all the tiles go, et cetera.

(34:29 - 34:52)

Brian Eng:

I guess you can play, that's the way I like to play it where everyone uses the same map, but I know that you can play it where just everyone gets a random map. But I feel like there are some maps that are-

Dave Eng:

Better.

Brian Eng:

... better than others.

(34:53 - 35:00)

Dave Eng:

I think that when we played it on BGA Bri, there was like choose a random map or choose a random map, but exclude these two maps that are going to be imbalanced or something. But I guess if everyone's using the same map.

Brian Eng:

I think they call it tournament mode when you want everybody to have the same map.

(35:00 - 35:09)

Dave Eng:

Oh yeah. I feel like that's most fair.

Brian Eng:

Yeah, I think if you're playing in any sort of competitive fashion, you need to have that.

Dave Eng:

Yeah, I agree. I agree.

(35:10 - 35:28)

Brian Eng:

That's a good one too. I think I might've had that in my examples maybe somewhere. Oh, you know what? I did have another one that was up there for me, but again, I hadn't played it enough. Have you played Kingdom Builder?

Dave Eng:

Yes, I used to own it.

(35:28 - 35:59)

Brian Eng:

Yeah, that's a good one. So, in that one, the way that it has a kind of a modular board, you pick four quadrants and the boards can flip over. So, there's a lot of combos in how the boards can be placed down. And then it's also, is it the powers or what? The way that you can lay your tiles down each terrain type can be different each game.

Dave Eng:

Yeah, which is funny because Kingdom Builder is also designed by Donald X.-

Brian Eng:

Oh, there you go.

Dave Eng:

... Vaccarino, who also designed Dominion.

(36:00 - 36:11)

Brian Eng:

Yeah, there you go.

(36:11 - 36:35)

Dave Eng:

I try to play it with, and in the future, Chris is probably listening to this right now because he likes the AP Table Talk episodes, but he thought this game was so boring. Kingdom Builder? The Kingdom Builder. Because if you haven't played it before, it's like a hex grid. And then you just turn over a common deck of cards, and it has a terrain type and then everyone gets to place one of their houses or pieces on that terrain type to build out their terrain. And for me, I was like, "Oh, that's awesome." That's a very elegant gameplay loop, core loop. But Chris just thought it was so boring. So, I can't fault him for-

Brian Eng:

I enjoyed that one. I enjoyed…

(36:35 - 36:47)

Dave Eng:

Yeah, I liked it too, but I just didn't get to the table enough to warrant keeping it.

Brian Eng:

Okay. That's all I got for our major examples. Do you have anything else you want to add?

Dave Eng:

No. Are we ready to go to Beyond the Basics?

(36:48 - 36:55)

Brian Eng:

Yep. We'll do another roll for initiative.

(36:56 - 37:04)

Dave Eng:

Yeah. So, if you're listening for the first time, we're going into Beyond the Basics now. We're going to roll again for initiative. And then here we're going to talk about our likes and dislikes here, the mechanic, and then whoever rolls highest will lead off. So, I'm ready to roll, Brian, when you are.

Brian Eng:

Yep. I'm ready.

Dave Eng:

Three, two, one, roll.

(37:05 - 37:10)

Brian Eng:

I got a seven.

Dave Eng:

I got a nine.

Brian Eng:

All right.

(37:11 - 37:19)

Dave Eng:

I just barely beat it up. So, Brian, I forget, do you want me to do all the likes or one like and then we'll trade off or?

(37:19 - 37:23)

Brian Eng:

Well, you can start. We'll go back and forth on the likes and you'll just lead off?

(37:23 - 37:52)

Dave Eng:

Okay, cool. All right. So, we've got three likes. I'm going to start off with my first like here. And this directly speaks to the definition on BGG in that variable setup affects replayability of games, but having a variable setup does not mean that a game is highly replayable. So, my first like is that I think that variable setup does indeed make a lot of games replayable. I'd say it supports replayability.

(37:52 - 38:26)

It takes tactical and strategic considerations into account. So, the strategic ones I would say would be related to YINSH with the setup is actually very much part of gameplay. And then the tactical one is I'd say kind of like Castles of Burgundy where if you're playing tournament mode and everyone gets the same map, you kind of know everyone is dealing with the same thing and now it's about how to make best use of your drafting and your turn. So, for me, I like the fact that this mechanic supports replayability, but it does not always mean that a game is highly replayable.

(38:26 - 39:19)

Brian Eng:

Yes. So that is also my first like, a high replay value. I had almost the same things. It forces you to reassess your tactics, your strategies, but my focus on why it was my biggest like of the mechanic is almost focused on the value part of that term in that I feel I get a lot of value in a game that has a lot of variable set up in that when it does, for example, a changed or a randomized board, the good ones, it almost makes the game feel like a new game just if it impacts it that much. And that is just something I really, really enjoy, which is kind of funny because we were talking about Scythe. I don't have that variable board expansion.

Dave Eng:

The one where-

Brian Eng:

The one expansion I don't have for Scythe.

(39:20 - 39:28)

Dave Eng:

Oh, I don't know if I have it either.

(39:29 - 39:45)

Brian Eng:

Because I haven't played it because I don't have it, but I remember some criticism about it on BGG. I don't know. I don't know if that was ever addressed or I don't know how valid that is, but it's surprising because that's one of both of our favorite games. And yeah, he was like, "No, I think that there was thought put out into the layout of that board."

Dave Eng:

Oh, actually I do own this. It is called the modular board.

(39:46 - 39:53)

Brian Eng:

Yeah, that's it. Sorry. And I think it's a bunch of triple hex pieces that kind of set it on to board.

Dave Eng:

You can just lay it on top of your modular side.

(39:53 - 40:04)

Brian Eng:

Right. Right. And I'm just like, I feel like the original layout is well-thought-out and balanced. And there's other randomized factors that make the game fresh.

(40:05 - 40:19)

Dave Eng:

I don't know if we ever asked it, but do you think Chris would like playing Scythe if he learned it? Because I know that he likes to play a lot of the same game.

Brian Eng:

I think he'd like it. I don't know if he likes longer games though.

(40:19 - 40:29)

Dave Eng:

Just prefer to play shorter, punchier games?

(40:29 - 41:08)

Brian Eng:

One time he was over and he wanted to play a heavy game. He gets in the mood, but I think more of the time we want high strategy, quick playing games. We're still playing Rumble Nation, even though I think two player is my least favorite player count in that game, but we're still playing that. It's a very punchy, quick game. I think those are our favorite games to play together. But I know he has that desire once in a while. He wants a meaty type game. When he asked for it, I think I played Brass with him.

Dave Eng:

Did he enjoy it?

(41:08 - 41:51)

Brian Eng:

Yeah, he liked it. But I think the problem is that because he only visits so often, so investing that time to learn a heavy game and then not really getting to play it is like, there's a way off there of how much time you want to invest into that of your limited playtime. So I think if there are people he played with more often that played those games and they learned something as a group and then he would be playing it over and over again, he would like a heavy game like that. He still plays Azul with his wife. They play daily.

Dave Eng:

Yeah. That's an awesome game.

(41:51 - 41:59)

Brian Eng:

It's a good one. And I got them the expansion for it just so they could switch up. It's just different enough. They've played enough that like, "Hey, just try out this other board."

(42:00 - 42:10)

Dave Eng:

Well, I guess, could you also say that Azul has variable setup or the tiles gets drafted?

Brian Eng:

I wouldn't call the drafting tiles, but you can change the map, right?

Dave Eng:

Yeah, yeah.

(42:10 - 42:23)

Brian Eng:

But yeah, so I don't know. But yeah, I was just thinking about that, but I guess that's a little bit of a tangent to what we were going on here, but-

Dave Eng:

So this also supports replayability? That was your first thought.

Brian Eng:

High replay value. Yeah.

(42:24 - 42:26)

Dave Eng:

I see. All right. So back to me for my second.

Brian Eng:

Okay, back to you. Yep.

(42:27 - 42:51)

Dave Eng:

So, my second like was, it's kind of a tangent and I think it directly refers, Brian, to what you said before, is that I think that variable setup also makes the game feel like "fresh" without having to alter the core aspects of the game. And the game I'm using as an example here, and we played this a bunch of times too, is Splendor, but with the level three cards.

(42:51 - 43:11)

So, if those of you haven't played Splendor before, it's kind of an engine drafting or engine building game. There's three levels of cards that you can use to build your engine. The level one cards are the cheapest and they tend to get consumed the fastest. Level two cards are more expensive. They don't get consumed as fast. And level three cards are the ones that are most expensive.

(43:11 - 43:37)

And I feel like for a game of Splendor, you're really only going through a handful of those cards, maybe three or four during a game. But I think that the level three cards that come out during the setup really influence my strategy now for Splendor. It doesn't change any of the core aspects of the game, but whatever comes out on level three will directly affect how I'm going to start playing and building my engine.

(43:37 - 43:47)

Brian Eng:

Sorry. It almost has the same impact as variable goals. Those almost become pseudo goals because you're driving your initial moves into how you're going to get those cards.

Dave Eng:

Agreed.

(43:47 - 44:04)

Brian Eng:

And which ones you're going for. All right, that's a good one. So my second one?

Dave Eng:

Yep.

(44:05 - 44:30)

Brian Eng:

It's a little bit related again, but what I like about variable setup is one of the things I like about board games and that draws me to board games in general is the puzzle solving. And I think that the, I guess it's kind of related to the replay too, is I like the way it changes the puzzles of a game. We talked about the efficiency, your efficient route building in Istanbul.

(44:31 - 44:51)

And I like that by just shuffling those location tiles around, you have a brand-new puzzle, brand new combos to kind of trigger. I guess that's another thing. I guess I'd call it combo hunting in games. I like to find those things that work well together and I think that feeling of discovering it is highlighted more when you have this kind of variable setup. So that's my second like about variable setup.

(44:51 - 44:57)

Dave Eng:

Nice. Yeah, I think that I love a long combo. We were talking about it before with Daniel and we're just like, "Oh, my turn will never end now."

(44:58 - 45:05)

Brian Eng:

Yeah, I glanced over and I saw that Cosmoctopus game. It just made me think of those combos.

(45:05 - 45:12)

Dave Eng:

Yep. They have-

Brian Eng:

Had some good combos.

(45:12 - 45:19)

Dave Eng:

Yeah, I included that in variable setup too, but I know we had covered that in depth. I forget. Oh, that was a Mancala. I forgot what that was.

Brian Eng:

I don't remember, but I know we talked about it.

Dave Eng:

We did talk about it.

(45:19 - 45:24)

Brian Eng:

We both randomly just bought around the same time, I think.

Dave Eng:

I was just like, "Oh, I got a good deal. I might as well buy it."

(45:24 - 45:29)

Brian Eng:

Yeah, that's what I did. Mine was on Amazon randomly.

(45:29 - 45:32)

Dave Eng:

Yeah. All right. Should I go back to my third and final?

Brian Eng:

Your third. Yep.

(45:32 - 45:39)

Dave Eng:

Okay. So, mine with variable setup. And Brian, I need you to fact check me on this one. I think it's this game, but I'm not sure.

(45:39 - 45:46)

Brian Eng:

I'll try.

(45:46 - 46:05)

Dave Eng:

Which is I like the variable setup. For me, I count this as variable setup. So I'm going to use YINSH as an example where you get to basically draft the starting positions and that's really part of play. But with the addition of a house rule, which is that once you draft positions, whoever's second player then gets to choose whether they want to play white or black. And you do that with Hive. Is that correct?

(46:06 - 46:32)

Brian Eng:

No, not Hive. I've seen that mechanic before and I can't remember what it is. But yeah, I like that as a balancing mechanic. There is other games that do it a little different too. I can't remember the game now, but it's a bigger game where you bid for the first play or you bid for turn. I guess a lot of games have bidding on turn order, but I can't remember what it is now, but yeah.

(46:32 - 46:34)

Dave Eng:

Five Tribes is one of them. You had to bid on turn order.

(46:34 - 46:44)

Brian Eng:

Oh, that's right. Yeah. That's multiple times too, you're bidding on the turn, you're buying your space on the turn order. Okay. Yeah, I like that.

Dave Eng:

House rule. Yeah.

(46:45 - 46:53)

Brian Eng:

Sub-mechanic of it. Now it's going to bug me. I'm trying to think of where I've seen because it wouldn't have been YINSH that I'm thinking of.

Dave Eng:

It's not YINSH. I though it was Hive, but I know it's some other two-player abstract game.

(46:54 - 47:02)

Brian Eng:

Do you do that in Go?

Dave Eng:

In Go? I don't know because I think Go, you just indicate a first player. I think it's white and then you just play Stones on the intersections.

(47:04 - 47:13)

Brian Eng:

I feel like there is some type of balancing in the beginning moves of that game that I can't remember now. Anyways, all right.

(47:14 - 47:16)

Dave Eng:

Your third like.

(47:17 - 47:49)

Brian Eng:

My third like. Okay. Oh, okay. So, this one, it doesn't always come up, but the one thing it can help with is if there are games where an experienced player has a major advantage over an experience. It can kind of help to an extent with that asymmetry because randomizing things at the beginning introduces some variance there. It can help bring that closer to fair by introducing some new challenges and stuff.

(47:50 - 48:31)

Again, I don't think that's necessarily true if someone's played a hundred games to someone who's brand new, but if there's a small difference, I think it can help even out that imbalance a little bit. Especially if neither is super experienced. If you're, "Oh yeah, I've played it a handful of times and then someone's new." I think it helps to keep it a little even.

Dave Eng:

I also see it though, Brian, conversely, totally upsetting the balance. If there's a variable set up and you haven't played the game before, but I played it a lot like in Istanbul, it's like, oh, I see these two locations that are right next to each other.

(48:31 - 48:53)

Brian Eng:

Oh, because you've now experienced more combos. You have more experience for this, yes. I don't think if the gap is really large, I think it starts to go the other way because it's like, "Oh, well, I've played this a thousand times. I've seen almost every combo there is." Or, "I know how to handle this combo."

Dave Eng:

So, it's like a bell curve.

(48:53 - 49:04)

Brian Eng:

Yeah, but in the earlier stages where a lot of my games are, it's like I've only played them handfuls of times. It keeps things a bit even for those first games, the learning phase of the games. All right. Okay. I guess we'll move on to our dislikes now?

(49:05 - 49:08)

Dave Eng:

Okay. So, I've got three dislikes. I'll lead off again here.

Brian Eng:

Sure.

(49:09 - 49:53)

Dave Eng:

Okay. So, we talked a little bit about this before, and specifically is the setup part of play? Is it part of the game setup overall? You brought up Dominion and the different card combinations that you can include in any Dominion game, and there's just so many combinations right now. As part of setup though, we talked about it before, everyone gets the same starting 10 Dominion cards, but those are randomized and you draw five into your hands. This is the question where it's like, is that part of setup? Because everyone gets the same cards, but the order in which you get them are randomized. So here I don't know, and it's purely from just a definition standpoint.

(49:54 - 50:14)

Brian Eng:

I would say that drawing the cards is not part of the setup. Your deck is the setup. So, if you have the same deck all the time, it wouldn't be variable. If you have a different deck, it's variable, but you have the same deck. Then drawing just again, it's just shuffling. You're just shuffling something. So, I wouldn't consider that so much variable setup, but again, by the strict definition, it could be.

(50:16 - 50:31)

Dave Eng:

Yeah, yeah. So, my dislike is that still need more work on this definition.

Brian Eng:

Right. Right.

Dave Eng:

How about you, Brian? What's your dislike?

(50:32 - 51:03)

Brian Eng:

Okay. So, one of the dislikes I think is more on the teaching. Teaching things is variable. It can add a lot of complexity to teaching a game or learning a game. And specifically for me, I don't like when it adds a lot of setup time and setup time comes in the form of my ability to remember how to set up a game that has a big variable setup and what small differences are good.

(51:03 - 51:17)

Again, this doesn't apply to all of them, but that is something I remember as like, "Oh, okay, I know I'm supposed to shuffle these up, but then what happens with this?" And then I have to reference the rules a lot. So I think it can be a little bit of a pet peeve with variable setup games.

Dave Eng:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I know that.

Brian Eng:

Onto your second?

(51:17 - 51:34)

Dave Eng:

Well, my second one, I talked a little bit about it before, but I realized that now after you shared it about teaching with variable setup can be very difficult, especially if someone hasn't played a lot of games before. But I guess trying to be transparent about it helps there. My second dislike was talking about unbalanced play.

(51:34 - 52:16)

So I know we talked about Castles of Burgundy, like tournament mode where everyone uses the same mat, some mats that are banned for tournaments. They're also banned map combinations for site and tournaments. I think one of the most popular ones is the Rusviet Industrial one, which tended to be overpowered. But the whole fact that variable setup, if your goal is to have a very balanced game, variable setup can make that very difficult.

Brian Eng:

Yeah, you could introduce some dependents on luck, right?

(52:16 - 52:29)

Dave Eng:

Yeah. So, from a design perspective, I would say that variable setup is probably not something you want to do with a first design, but it is something that you could introduce potentially later on. And I only say don't introduce it early because it could be difficult to create a balance game if that is your intended outcome.

Brian Eng:

Yeah. I think it would be challenging as a first design to have.

Dave Eng:

That was my second.

(52:29 - 53:02)

Brian Eng:

Okay. So, I have, I wrote it down as front loaded cognitive load. And what I mean by that is I'll go back to Dominion as an example. So, you have your market out there and you can see it. Actually, you know what? Splendor is a good example too, and I find those first moves in those games can take a long time because you're kind of trying to calculate because you can't go into the game with a strategy ready to go.

(53:02 - 53:46)

So, until that layout is there and you're ready to do those first things, now you can start figuring out, "Okay, I need this and this." So, I find that in some of the variable setup games, those first turns can be a little bit trudging along. Gaia Project comes to mind actually as another one. That one already has a lot of turning wheels and then introducing all the variants to that. Yeah.

(53:48 - 53:54)

Actually, it almost works the other way for me in Gaia Project in that there's so much going on. I don't even make a long-term strategy in that game. I just start playing and see which way I start heading and then try to move in that direction. So yeah, that's my second dislike.

(53:54 - 54:34)

Dave Eng:

Okay. My third and final dislike, again, goes back to teaching and I think it really addresses new players. And I don't know if there's a good way to address this, but if there are variable setup considerations, I think you should make it transparent to new players. But I also see a downside to that in that could take away some agency from them determining through their own play how this variable setup is going to affect how this game is going to play out.

(54:35 - 54:46)

So, I don't know. I just know that variable setup, unless it is a global one, and by global, I mean everyone gets the same mat and Castles of Burgundy. It can be difficult to teach because there's a lot of different things to take into consideration, especially if whatever you do on your mat, it's going to affect whatever happens on my mat. There's adjacency requirement to consider.

Brian Eng:

Yeah. Okay, I'll go on to my last one here.

(54:46 - 55:04)

Dave Eng:

Yep.

(55:05 - 55:37)

Brian Eng:

So, my last kind of dislike about variable setup games are the variable setup games where the variance is kind of empty feeling. Yes, it's variable, but it doesn't actually ad anything by being variable. And I might be being a bit harsh, but I'll give some examples of the ones where I feel that way. So I mentioned Catan as being my first. And yeah, it has the thing that I always consider variable setup, which is a randomized board. But even though I always consider randomized board, yeah, that changes things a lot in the game. I don't feel like it changes the strategy in that game at all.

(55:38 - 56:41)

Yeah, you randomize the resources in the board, but your goals don't change. You're still going for high payoff intersections to place your settlers. None of your strategy changes. The core loop stays exactly the same other than the board is a different board. And when talking about variable setup, that's kind of a pet peeve of variable setup. I would say outside of board changes, I could use Wingspan as another example where you have, so they boast a huge deck of unique cards.

(56:42 - 56:51)

But yes, every card is different, but it doesn't change the way you play the game at all. Whereas Dominion, you could change one type of card out and it could change your whole strategy of those 10 cards. So, there's a much bigger impact in the variation that Dominion introduces with a different card than what Wingspan introduces by having a different card. So yeah, that's my ... I don't even know if I'd call it dislike so much as it just feels empty, the variation.

(56:52 - 57:19)

Dave Eng:

Yeah. I know what you mean. That's really interesting because I haven't really thought about those two games as part of variable setup because Wingspan I think is great in that when we were talking about replayability before, I think that's great for replayability because again, for Wingspan, you get the draft, you select your birds, you select your starting resources, and then you also select your secret objective.

(57:19 - 57:41)

And you have a lot of agency in determining, "Okay, I can make these kind of work together with my private goals and the public goals and these are the birds that are out there." And I'm like, "Okay, I think I can see this all working for me. It's kind of like the opposite for you with Gaia Project." Because for Gaia Project, you're like, "I'm just going to do stuff and then hope it works out in the end." But Wingspan, you can be very deliberate at the beginning with your setup.

(57:41 - 57:59)

Brian Eng:

And that's not to say I don't like the game. I know Wingspan is very popular. I like the game. It's not my favorite. Again, there's not enough attacking birds in it, but-

Dave Eng:

I want to steal your food.

(57:59 - 58:09)

Brian Eng:

... the dislike of the way that variable setup is in that game. Again, it is variation, but it's almost like the illusion of variation because it doesn't change the core way that I'm playing the game.

Dave Eng:

Yeah, agreed.

Brian Eng:

So yeah, that's my dislike.

(58:09 - 58:22)

Dave Eng:

All right. Should we move on to bonus round?

(58:22 - 58:32)

Brian Eng:

Sure. And I was thinking, and I should have wrote it down as soon as I though of it because now I forgot it was related to something you had said in the dislikes. What was your second dislike?

Dave Eng:

Second dislike was variable setup can unbalance play in Scythe with bad map combinations.

(58:32 - 58:44)

Brian Eng:

Hopefully it comes back to me, but now I'm forgetting.

(58:44 - 59:02)

Dave Eng:

Okay. So, bonus round, Bri, I've got a few things, a few games that I wanted to mention because it didn't come up in conversation and just a funny story to share. So, number one, and I thought about this with teaching new players is we played one variable setup game on Board Game Arena. I didn't know how to pronounce it. I watched a video and that told me how to pronounce it. It's called Maatatahay.

Brian Eng:

Oh yes. Yes.

(59:02 - 59:39)

Dave Eng:

M-A-A-T-A-T-A-H-A-Y. And that's very much a two-player abstract game. But as part of the setup, like with YINSH, you have to select where these temples on the board go. And I would argue that's probably the most important decision to make in that game. Yes, there are other warriors that come out that allow you to score points and also control the board, but where you put these temples is I think critically important. We won two games and I remember winning at least one game because I just placed the temples in a very adequate position. I don't know, Brian, if you had the same interpretation for that game because it was not an easy game to learn despite it.

(59:39 - 59:57)

Brian Eng:

It wasn't an easy game to learn and I feel like I played very poorly.

Dave Eng:

Because didn't get it or didn't-

(59:58 - 1:00:21)

Brian Eng:

I think I actually, I enjoyed the game, but the strategy did not click with me right away. I still feel like I wasn't sure what a good move was. And I don't know if it was just It's the complexity in learning it, but I remember just feeling like, "Okay, I think this is a good move." And then I would see your move and was like, "Oh no, that wasn't a good ... I should have done this. "

(1:00:21 - 1:00:30)

I just couldn't see the next steps in that game for some reason, which is odd because you can see what piece the other player has to play too. So yeah, I don't know why I found that one so troubling to learn or to learn the strategy, to learn a strategy or to figure out a tactic or whatever.

(1:00:30 - 1:00:44)

Dave Eng:

I felt like it demanded a lot from you for a game that was not very significant. I don't know. It's a two-player abstract. It still requires a lot, but I think that for the amount of brain burning I have to do, I would not choose that game. I would choose a different game.

(1:00:45 - 1:01:22)

Brian Eng:

And that might be part of it because there is kind of a lot of dominoes happening in that game. It makes it hard for me to play those the way we play them. I do a turn or two every day. So it's hard for me to come back and you don't immediately look at that game state and know, "Okay, yeah, I was doing this and then this was going to happen." So having to go through that again each time, I probably just said, "Nah, you know what? This seems like an okay move." And I think that really hurt me in that game. I just remember doing very poorly.

(1:01:23 - 1:01:35)

Dave Eng:

Yeah. I was like, I don't know if I'm doing really well or Brian's doing really poorly in this game, but I kind of like winning now, but not enough to continue playing it because I was like, "I don't think this game is really clicking."

(1:01:35 - 1:01:38)

Brian Eng:

Yeah, I would maybe try it again in real time, see if that makes a difference.

(1:01:39 - 1:01:43)

Dave Eng:

I think real time would help.

(1:01:43 - 1:01:56)

Brian Eng:

Yeah. I could kind of get a train of thought going, but I think I feel like I just had trouble seeing the impact of my play right away.

Dave Eng:

Did you remember Bri? Because I got a-

(1:01:56 - 1:02:44)

Brian Eng:

Yeah, actually I did. We were talking about your dependence on or your fairness and variation and dependence on luck. And specifically, you mentioned in design, in designing a fairness, right? At the beginning, we were talking about how we define it and I kind of split it into variation in player setup and variation in the common board setup. And I think that it might be a lot easier from a balance standpoint to have a variable board because it affects all the players equally for the most part.

(1:02:44 - 1:03:20)

There may be some differences in like, "Okay, well, this board setup gives the first player a huge advantage or something like that." But I think in general, and we talked about the overlap with variable player powers, which is kind of like, okay, if you're just varying each player individually, that's almost like variable player powers, which is I think notoriously hard to balance as opposed to, "Okay, everyone still plays the same. Now this is the board." Or, "Now this goal changes, but everyone still plays the same." I think if you want to dip your toes into a variable setup, you could start with those from a balance standpoint.

(1:03:22 - 1:04:04)

Dave Eng:

Right. That's really interesting, Brian, that you brought that up because one of the games I wanted to talk about that I played in preparation for this episode has that in mind, which is The Quest for El Dorado by Reiner Knizia. It's a deck building race game. Oh, and that's why I wanted to play this game for a race episode and I didn't get to play it, but it has variable setup in that The Quest for El Dorado is a race game where you're racing through the jungle to get your explorer to El Dorado.

(1:04:04 - 1:04:17)

And the variable setup comes with how you set up all of these boards to race through the jungle. And it's good because you can set up the boards to be as long or short or as difficult or as easy as you want, but the setup is the same for all the players. We all have to race through this jungle. And I think what makes it really interesting is that there are some boards where I think this is what you want.

(1:04:17 - 1:04:45)

You want a long path that is safer or a short path that is more treacherous, and you kind of look at your deck of cards and like, "Well, I'm not really feeling the short path right now because I don't have any cards that'll help me there. So, I could take the long path and hopefully I'll luck out later." So, it's a game that has a really great positive play experience for what it contains. And it's like a big box game, but I really enjoy playing it and it plays very fast from what I remember.

(1:04:46 - 1:04:56)

Brian Eng:

That's one that I have not played yet and I keep meaning play it, and then I also always get it confused with the Island of El Dorado, which I completely kick started.

Dave Eng:

We kick started.

(1:04:56 - 1:05:03)

Brian Eng:

Yeah, that's right. We both have, which I would say is a mediocre game. It looks nice.

Dave Eng:

Oh, definitely looks nice.

(1:05:04 - 1:05:33)

Brian Eng:

We would like that one a lot because she just likes things to look nice. I think there was a little too much randomness in that game if I remember. I haven't played it in a long time, but there's a bunch of expansions to try to address it, but I haven't played it since those came out. Yeah, I need to try to play Quest for El Dorado because I think that is one that comes up a lot.

(1:05:33 - 1:05:37)

Dave Eng:

Yeah. It's a really, really good deck building game, race game, and also variable setup. It just hits all the marks.

Brian Eng:

Oh, I already have that on my one. All right.

(1:05:37 - 1:05:47)

Dave Eng:

Do you have anything else for bonus round?

Brian Eng:

I don't, so go ahead.

Dave Eng:

Can I just keep going?

Brian Eng:

Yeah.

(1:05:48 - 1:05:55)

Dave Eng:

Okay. Two games that we have definitely played together that have variables set up to varying degrees though, and I like to debate it. So last time we saw each other, we played Propolis at your house. So it is the-

Brian Eng:

Oh yes, the bees.

(1:05:55 - 1:06:31)

Dave Eng:

The bee game. I would say that I characterize it as it's like a leveled up Splendor basically because you're building an engine, you're trying to get scoring cards. There's some aspect of area control and the variable setup I think comes from, to your point, Brian, there's a market of cards, but it also has multi-use cards.

(1:06:31 - 1:06:36)

So, some cards could come out as an area to gather resources or an area or a building to build to get victory points to use those resources. And I just like that overall because I felt that nothing changes about the game from game to game. You'd play the same way. It's just that the cards in the order in which they come out change up the tactics.

(1:06:37 - 1:07:02)

Brian Eng:

Yeah, I remember that having a lot of neat little moving parts in it, but there was something about the cohesiveness that it didn't flow. Didn't feel as elegant as I wanted it to be, I guess.

Dave Eng:

Yeah. It did not feel intuitive. That's the word I'm looking for.

(1:07:02 - 1:07:20)

Brian Eng:

Yeah, which is unfortunate because again, I liked the way you did the area control on the rows or whatever and had to pull your bees back and things like that. All that was neat. It just didn't feel like it was cohesive.

(1:07:21 - 1:07:42)

Dave Eng:

Yeah, I wanted it to be something I could easily remember and I could not.

(1:07:42 - 1:07:51)

Brian Eng:

Right. Yeah. I kept having to think about it too much as opposed to, which I consider almost the opposite. It's like Splendor. When you teach Splendor, once people understand the way the resources work, the permanent resources, I think that game just flows real nice. That one is really easy for people to get into.

Dave Eng:

Yeah, I agree.

Brian Eng:

Or the Splendave version.

(1:07:51 - 1:07:55)

Dave Eng:

The Splendave version. Oh yeah.

Brian Eng:

To give that a show note, Splendave.

(1:07:55 - 1:08:28)

Dave Eng:

Yeah. So, two of the Banditos members, Gini and Owen created Splendor, but they replaced all the cards with just AI version photos of me on them. So, they called it Splendave. There's only a few copies that exist. I showed it to Bri last time I saw them and it is as awesome as you think it is. So, if you're listening to this and you want to see some photos, just email me dave@universityxp.com and I will send you a photo because they are pretty awesome.

Brian Eng:

You should add it to versions of Splendor.

(1:08:28 - 1:08:36)

Dave Eng:

Yeah. I don't know if I want to open up that can of worms. Other game I had Bri, and then you tell me this, how does this fall in variable setup? Jaipur.

(1:08:36 - 1:08:54)

Brian Eng:

Jaipur. So that one has the-

Dave Eng:

The market.

Brian Eng:

... markets, which again, so my stance on market is that alone does not make it variable setup.

Dave Eng:

Yeah, but the bonus tokens that are randomized.

(1:08:54 - 1:09:02)

Brian Eng:

Bonus tokens, I'm trying to refresh my memory. I haven't played this game in a while.

(1:09:02 - 1:09:13)

Dave Eng:

So, the bonus tokens are what you get if you sell a certain number of the same good. If you sell at least three, you get a three-card bonus token and those could be worth a variable amount of points.

(1:09:14 - 1:09:29)

Brian Eng:

I think it's the same thing. They're shuffled, but you always get that, that doesn't change. They're always there. So, it's just a shuffle again, which I don't consider the shuffle, things being shuffled to be variable setup. Again, by the strict definition, I guess it is, but-

Dave Eng:

Naturality.

(1:09:29 - 1:09:44)

Brian Eng:

The setup itself is the same. Yes, you're going to get this. There's three of these tokens, whatever. You get them as you sell this many of whatever good. So I don't know if I would lump it in. I don't know if I'd put it as a variable setup game.

(1:09:45 - 1:10:05)

Dave Eng:

Mm-hmm. And then I have one more story to share, Brian.

Brian Eng:

Yeah, go for it.

(1:10:05 - 1:10:13)

Dave Eng:

Okay. So, I recently just got back from visiting Greg out in Denver with the Denver Engs, and then my mom had sent to them via mail the Mancala board that she played with as a girl growing up. So, it's kind of like a family heirloom. I wanted her to send it over to them so that the kids could play it because Greg said that the kids are really into Mancala, just playing Mancala.

Brian Eng:

Nice.

(1:10:13 - 1:10:50)

Dave Eng:

So, the Filipino version of Mancala is called Sungka, S-U-N-G-K-A, and it's set up a lot of other Mancala boards where each side has six pots and then you have a scoring pot on each side and each player claims the side. So then when my aunt was trying to teach them, she was using this variation, which I just thought was crazy because I'm like, I've never seen a Mancala game played like this where you set up the board by putting seven seashells.

(1:10:50 - 1:11:06)

My mom has the actual seashells she used when she was a kid in each one of the pots. And then you start simultaneously. And I was like, "What? You don't do that in mancala. You just pick up one pot, and you start dropping off shells going around and you keep doing it until you can't go anymore because you end up on your opponent side of the board." But to me, I'm like with Mancala, it's kind of like a known quantity.

(1:11:06 - 1:11:35)

You can count out based on your move. But if you do it simultaneously, I was like, "Well, this is crazy. I don't think that this is a rule." And we played like that and I was like, "Oh, this actually makes it kind of fun because you're trying at the very beginning since you both are going simultaneously to never die. And you want to get the long chaining combo." And I was like, "No, there's no way that this is the way you play Mancala." And then we played a few games. I'm like, "I don't think I want to play regular Mancala." Because just doing it simultaneously was really fun.

Brian Eng:

I'll have to try that out.

Dave Eng:

Yeah. Yeah.

(1:11:35 - 1:12:11)

Brian Eng:

So that is something that was very much part of growing up between me and Chris, my brother Chris, was house ruling, all kinds of stuff. We still have our original copy of Life and there's these little scraps of paper in the box because we had made house rules for spots and we would put the paper over top because it was like, "Oh, that's not what it should mean when you become a doctor. Here's what-"

Dave Eng:

Oh, so you made a legacy version of Life.

(1:12:12 - 1:12:33)

Brian Eng:

... So, we made all kinds of changes. And the one that relates to variable setup that I'm thinking is there was at one point we were playing a lot of backgammon. I would say that Chris actually is one who likes to introduce some variations to games a lot. He came up with ... So there's the standard starting layout of where your-

Dave Eng:

Checkers?

Brian Eng:

... your checkers are.

Dave Eng:

Yeah.

(1:12:34 - 1:12:48)

Brian Eng:

So he came up with one where you kind of draft spaces or not draft, but you take turns picking where pieces go and then the other person has to match because you still have to be the same.

(1:12:48 - 1:12:55)

Dave Eng:

Symmetrical.

(1:12:55 - 1:13:03)

Brian Eng:

Essentially, so you have a randomized start so that the pieces aren't in the same starting position all the time. So, he turned Backgammon into a variable setup game.

Dave Eng:

It sounds pretty cool. If you play a lot of Backgammon, it's probably-

(1:13:03 - 1:13:24)

Brian Eng:

Yeah. And I think that was the thing is like, "Okay, well, you always have the same set, so you kind of know what you're going for at the beginning." So, by changing that, you just change your starting game. And actually, related to that, I don't remember the exact name, but there is a version of chess where the back row pieces are randomized.

(1:13:25 - 1:13:36)

Dave Eng:

Yes, I have heard of this.

Brian Eng:

Is it like something-

Dave Eng:

I thought it was all the pieces.

(1:13:36 - 1:13:45)

Brian Eng:

... I think you keep your pawns in the second row there, but your back row is randomized. And then there are some banned spots for pieces. And I don't know if it's Bobby Fischer that came up with it.

(1:13:45 - 1:14:00)

Dave Eng:

Is it where like-

Brian Eng:

Fisher-

Dave Eng:

... both bishops are on black, that's banned.

Brian Eng:

... Well, I think you have to match. Yeah, maybe your bishops have to be on opposite color still.

(1:14:01 - 1:14:11)

Dave Eng:

Yeah, because otherwise that cuts off a huge part of the board for bishops, right?

Brian Eng:

Chess960.

Dave Eng:

Oh, okay. So Bobby Fischer came up with this?

(1:14:11 - 1:14:40)

Brian Eng:

So, it's Bobby Fischer's chess variation. He wanted to eliminate memorizing openings. And the 960 refers to, I think, how many different combos there could be that were valid combos. And that again, another, I think that falls in the spirit of what we used to do in our household is you play a game so much, okay, how can we shake it up a little bit? But yeah, so that's variable setup chess is Chess960.

(1:14:40 - 1:14:48)

Dave Eng:

Variable setup is, I guess, synonymous with house rules now.

Brian Eng:

Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Eng:

Those are all the bonuses I have, Bri.

(1:14:48 - 1:15:11)

Brian Eng:

All right. Yeah, I think that's all I've got. So yeah, I guess that wraps up our variable setup episode of AP Table Talk. If you'd like to hear more content like this, please be sure to subscribe. You can also check out more of our content projects and other information about us at universityxp.com.

(1:15:12 - 1:15:20)

Dave Eng:

Thanks for joining us. We'd also love it if you took some time to rate the show. We live to lift others with learning. So, if you found this episode useful, consider sharing it with someone who could also benefit. So, until next time, game on.

Brian Eng:

Game on.

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Cite this Episode (Audio):

Eng, D. & Eng, B. (Hosts). (2026, August 9). AP Table Talk: Variable Setup. (No. 170) [Audio podcast episode]. Experience Points. University XP. https://www.universityxp.com/podcast/170

Cite this Episode (Video):

Eng, D. & Eng, B. (Hosts). (2026, [August 16]). AP Table Talk: Variable Setup. (No. 170) [Video]. Experience Points. University XP. https://www.universityxp.com/video/170

Internal Ref: UXPU3OE2XUWW