Episode 157 Mary-Ellen Fimbel on Game Design Principles for Education
Mary-Ellen Fimbel on Game Design Principles for Education
Episode Summary
This episode of Experience Points features game designer and educator Mary-Ellen Fimbel, who shares how game design principles can transform classroom learning. She discusses “teaching like a game dev,” using storytelling, interactivity, and even puppets as playful avatars to deliver authentic feedback and spark curiosity. Mary-Ellen explains how honoring student questions, modeling inquiry, and scaffolding problem-solving builds confidence and creativity. She also explores project-based learning through student-created games and her classroom approach to metacognitive self-assessment. Educators, designers, and anyone interested in games-based learning will find practical strategies to make learning more engaging, dynamic, and meaningful.
Mary-Ellen Fimbel
She/her/hers
Game Designer, Curriculum Developer, and Graduate Student
Masters of Game Studies at University of Klangenfurt
Mary-Ellen is a Master’s student in Game Studies and Engineering at Alpen-Adria University in Klagenfurt, Austria, exploring how games can inspire creativity and deepen learning. With over 15 years of experience in education and a background in curriculum design, she bridges the worlds of teaching, technology, and play. Her current work focuses on "teaching like a game dev", educational game design, and how interactive experiences can empower students to explore big ideas through curiosity and storytelling
(LinkedIn): https://www.linkedin.com/in/mefimbel
(Website): https://mefimbel.wixsite.com/maryellenfimbel
Dave Eng:
Hi, and welcome to Experience Points by University. On Experience Points, we explore different ways we can learn from games. I'm your host Dave Eng from Games-Based Learning by University XP.Find out more at www.universityxp.com
Dave Eng:
On today's episode, we'll learn from Mary-Ellen Fimble. Mary-Ellen is a master's student in game studies and engineering, exploring how game design can transform learning. With 15 plus years’ experience in education and a background in curriculum design, she's now focused on teaching like a game dev, using storytelling and interactivity to spark curiosity and creativity in the classroom.Mary-Ellen, welcome to the show!
Mary-Ellen Fimble:
Thanks for having me, Dave. I'm excited to be here.
Dave Eng:
Great, I'm glad to have you. I think that the first question I really want to ask you about, and this was, I think, the most interesting aspect of your presentation at this past year's Games -Based Learning Virtual Conference, was overall like teaching as a designer. So, my first question for you is, what does it mean to quote-unquote, teach like a game dev? And how can educators begin adopting that mindset?
Mary-Ellen Fimble:
Yeah, that's a great question.And I've had a lot of fun exploring that aspect of my teaching. And it kind of is helpful to have a little bit of background. It came about that I was doing some kind of games-based learning things.
And then I got into making some escape rooms during the pandemic that were virtual for kids online. And when I was making those, I realized not only the activities could be games-based, but also the whole environment of learning. And so, when I went back to the in-person classes, I really started kind of creating my own characters and my own stories.
I had always used puppets before, but I moved from just using the puppets as like attention getters to really giving them a more fully fleshed out story and being more intentional about like how I was using the puppets to not just interact with kids, but to create these fictional worlds that our learning was taking place in. And as I learned more about creating good quality games and using things like the game environment, like speaking more specifically, I guess, about digital games, like how tutorials use pictures to tell the player what to do. I started thinking more about things like, oh, I can incorporate this in the visual aspects of my classroom by being a little bit more intentional.
And then also thinking about the way the game naturally gives feedback to players to kind of incorporate a lot more specific feedback and a lot more timely feedback also into every classroom experience, not just in assessments, but more casually. And but still intentionally.
Dave Eng:
Great! One question I have for you, though, as you talked about puppets specifically, can you share more about like, what would you say is the age range for the students you've worked with?
Mary-Ellen Fimble:
Oh, sure. I have primary school kids, so kind of kindergarten, pre-K to grade six. And a lot of people feel a little bit shy about using puppets, probably after maybe like first or second grade, they think, oh, it's going to actually be a little bit too kidsy.
But for me, it's actually been a lot of fun to work with the older kids. And I think one of the things I did was I actually created a, like a storybook for one of the puppet stories. And so for the older kids, we are a lot more, we kind of break that fourth wall with the fact that, oh, yeah, this puppet is a character and this is their story.
But then I also created a digital game to use in class. And so they enjoy the, they can ask the character from the game questions and this kind of interactive element.
Dave Eng:
I see.And then the second part I wanted to ask you about was in relation to the puppets, you talked about feedback, which I think is an important part about applied games and games-based learning. How did the use of puppets in your overall framework inform like how your students, your learners would get feedback from your design?
Mary-Ellen Fimble:
I think a lot of it is, it becomes a lot more natural because the puppet has to interact. And so whether the puppet is making a little kind of side comment about something that's going on or answering questions directly or showing excitement for like a positive, giving feedback in a positive way, being excited about an answer a student gives.
I think that that helps. And I also realized that my original puppet was the snail and he was modeled after, is modeled after a student who was just really, really difficult. And for all the teachers out there, you can just imagine your, you know, hardest student who you sometimes struggle to get along with and to build a relationship with.
And so my puppet basically modeled his behavior in class. And so it was subtle at first, but the other students very quickly realized that this was what was going on. And so we were able to talk about the behavior of the snail in relation to class and sort of remove that from the student.
But then also the snail is super rude. And so he can say, he can say all the things that, you know, as a teacher, you're like, man, I wish I could just say this. Maybe not all of them, but you know, the kid appropriate ones anyway.
He can say those things to the kids and they think it's hilarious, but they still take it seriously enough most of the time. And so the honesty with which I could give feedback with puppets helped to build a really good rapport with students. And I realized that as I was giving this honest, you know, feedback, not really sugarcoating anything, not being rude, obviously, but just being honest, like, oh yeah, that's not the answer.
If this is, you know, this is good quality work and this is not so great. I realized that the students actually value your positive input when you're not always doing the sandwich method, when you're not giving all these kind of false, this false positivity that sometimes happens when we try too hard to, you know, sandwich everything. When you tell them they've done a good job, when you also tell them they've done a bad job, then they value your positive feedback a lot more.
Dave Eng:
And I think that's a really important insight specifically. I'm trying to think about this snail being really rude right now, which is like incredibly hilarious in my mind. But like with games in general, we identify with the avatar, you know, like the player character, and then you're acting through that avatar, through that player character.
And I just think that, you know, this aspect of using puppets, I think that, you know, some educators that might be listening may have not really thought about using puppets before. But if you think about it, they are representative of you, you know, like of you, your actions, you know, potentially your students' actions as well. And then you operate through that puppet, which is your avatar.
And that's no really different than, you know, acting throughout an avatar in online games, or using like meeples or pawns to represent our player selves in a game. So thank you, Mary-Ellen, I appreciate that response. The second question I have for you is just overall designing for curiosity.
So I know we talked about, you know, your philosophy and your approach right here. But my question for you is, how do you design intentionally with games-based learning experiences that spark curiosity rather than just deliver content?
Mary-Ellen Fimble:
My biggest philosophy about this is like honor every question and to also give credit to kids that if they're asking a question, even if it seems like totally unrelated to you, that the kid feels like this question is relevant to the topic. Because, you know, I've found in all my years of teaching that, you know, occasionally you have the kid who's trying to sidetrack the conversation or something.
But generally, they're genuinely curious about something. And the more we ignore questions or say, oh, you'll learn about that next year, the less curious kids are. And so part of it is just like establishing that expectation that in my class, we are going to be curious.
That's one level. And that kind of plays out in that sometimes we cover exactly what is meant to be covered in the activity or the experience. But sometimes that may mean we get on a whole other tangent.
This year, I know, I can't even remember what the actual learning element. I think we're doing something with poetry and something. I think the kids were, we were about to set up this kind of little quest where they were going to look at different poems and make a little musical ostinato from a line in a poem.
But the kids were kind of giving each other a little bit of a hard time about something. And there was one student who has some sensory issues. And so it turned into this conversation about like sensory issues being kind of a bell curve when we looked at average and things like this.
And so even though that kind of interrupted our play, interrupted our intended game, it turned into this really great conversation. And that just keeps kids very, very curious all the time. It sets the mood, I guess.
Dave Eng:
So I appreciate that, Mary-Ellen. And I think that curiosity overall, I think is very important because I think that's a innate intrinsic motivator and a driver for why individuals and players are going to want to ultimately learn, but also play your game. My question for you though, and I don't have any children, but I have a lot of young nieces and nephews.
And I always get a lot of the questions that are based on their curiosity. So I kind of want to know from your perspective, how do you answer a question that a student may ask you where you need to explain other concepts first that they may not understand before you can answer their question? Kind of like the example I have to bring up is if one of my nieces were to ask me, what is the United Nations? Well, first I had to explain what are nations, like what are countries, and then how are they related to each other and how governance works. So from your perspective as an educator, how do you respect your learner's curiosity, but also attempt to, I guess, scaffold your answer in a way where it's like, I need to explain these other things first before I can answer your question.
Mary-Ellen Fimble:
Yeah, I think for me, this is a very tricky topic, especially because most of the time I've had kids for only like my class periods are usually pretty short, like 45 minutes. And so when you kind of add that in, it's easy to say, like, try and rush through an explanation, which is a big stifler of curiosity. And so the first thing that I always think about is, how can I model, first of all, like curiosity, and then how can I also model finding the answer to this question? Because even if we don't have the time to get through the whole, like the actual answer to the question, if I model enough of the search process, the figuring out.
So with that kind of question, at first I would kind of ask, oh, well, what is this phrase? First of all, does anybody know? Because sometimes kids can give like a really more concise explanation. And then we would say like, okay, well, do you know what this word means? Do you know what this word means? And then sometimes, okay, well, let's Google it. So I try and model as frequently as I can, like how to find the information yourself, especially, lots of times kids ask about stuff that is really abstract, or it's like, I could explain this, but like you say, it would take like so long.
But sometimes just like doing a quick internet search is a good, you know, first it models for them, like how to find the information themselves. And then second, it can sometimes be a quicker answer, or it's a good kind of journey altogether. But I guess that's kind of my framework is encourage and model curiosity, demonstrate how to find the answer.
And then if you can't do those things, then give an answer that is concise, but also shows how that's related to the student directly. So I might relate like the United Nations to like the student council or a concept that's closer to home for them.
Dave Eng:
Right. Great. Thank you, Mary-Ellen. I appreciate that. That’s a really well scaffolded response. And actually feeds into my third and last question, which is about playful problem solving. So in your experience, how does bringing game mechanics into the classroom shift the way students approach problem solving?
Mary-Ellen Fimble:
I think one thing I was really excited to do was that I actually created a like game design lesson unit.
And I think through the act of creating something. So in this particular case, it was a little bit project-based learning, but it was really mostly about the problem solving. I did not.
And this is one area that to me is really hard to get to be accepted by school administration is that the idea of project-based learning is not about the completed project, but it's that process, the problem solving that goes into trying to make the product. And so in this particular project, we really talked about different elements of game design. And then they ended up creating their own games in Scratch.
And it was really interesting to see how some kids are really independent. And they were just like, oh, okay, I'm gonna go find a YouTube tutorial that if I didn't quite understand this, or I'm gonna ask for help. But then some kids, they really just, they don't have those skills yet.
And so I think in creating projects or creating game-based learning, either way, it's important to scaffold and model like how to solve a problem, but without making everybody wait around to see about that. So a lot of times in any kind of activity, I will have my students say, kind of rate themselves about, do you understand, basically, do you understand the directions? Are you good to go? So if you're a one, then you don't need any of my help. And you'll just come to me when the project's done.
You understand what to do that well. If you're a three, then you need it to be explained one more time. And here's a quick explanation.
And then if you're a five, you need me to really help you walk your way, walk your way through the whole process. Like I need to do a, I do, you do, we do. I do, we do, you do, yeah.
Well, more scaffolded approach to the project. And I noticed that the more I had kids like self-rate their understanding of what to do in things, like the better questions kids would ask and the more confident they would feel. And they would also feel a lot more confident coming back and being like, oh, I got this far, but here's my question rather than like just the standard kind of I don't know what to do sort of answer.
So I think modeling that it's okay to need help understanding what to do allows kids to be able to create their own framework for asking for the help that they need.
Dave Eng:
Great. Thank you, Ellen. I really like that because I feel like it's a very metacognitive approach. Can you just walk me through it again? It's step one is you know how to do it. Is that correct?
Mary-Ellen Fimble:
Yeah. Oh yeah. And so I also always have kids use like odd numbers. So because what happens in the class, we don't have like they vote with their fingers.
So if I ask, say rate yourself on a one or two or three, lots of kids like somehow they don't understand that like one is like just your thumb. So we end up with like one and two, like for elementary school kids is a thing. So one is, you know, a thumbs up or, you know, first finger.
And this is easy, even if they end up with both. I know that's one and then three and then five. So one is I'm totally independent.
Three is I need a little bit more explanation, but I kind of know what to do. And then five is I'm totally lost. I need a lot of help.
So the first step is to have them kind of self-rate and then send off like, so those ones who already know what to do, they get to start right away. They don't have to sit around and listen to the second explanation. They don't have to participate in the like teacher modeled version of this because they already know what to do.
And so that gives them a lot of self-directed time to kind of get more in depth into their project. And then the three is they usually need a little bit of more explanation. And some kids who thought they were a five, they realize after the second explanation, oh, I was actually a three.
So then they kind of get dismissed and they can go work independently or they can ask ones a question. So it's kind of also framing that student leadership. So then the fives get a little, like a really good step through.
And it might be depending on how big the project is. It might be a, you know, I hear I'm going to demonstrate. Okay, now let's do this one together.
And then now you go try on your own. Or it might be a situation of where you're kind of short on time, where I kind of fill in some of the blanks. Oh, okay, you need, you're trying to write your story.
So here is, here are three settings. Choose one of these settings. So they get that more higher level of scaffolding.
Dave Eng:
Right, right, right. I really love that approach because I feel like you give a lot of your students the agency in order to choose for themselves. Like they can just go and run with it.
They can get a little bit of help or they can get a lot of help based on like what your ask is and what the overall project is. Have you ever experienced that with your students? Like, you know, like a student may want, may want like the freedom to just start something, but may not have, you know, like may not completely understand it. So they like, they will choose one because they see a lot of other students choosing one, but they're actually three or they're actually five.
Mary-Ellen Fimble:
Yes, this usually happens like at the beginning of the year when I first like start using that. And so the conversation usually happens like, oh, our class time is over and that student may not have like any work to show. And so then I say, oh, hey, you know, you seem kind of down about this project.
I guess you didn't actually know as much as you felt like you did about what to do. And I always put it on like, oh, the directions were a little bit complicated and like really low stakes. Like it's no judgment of the student just in that, like, oh, this is such a sad thing that happened.
Like you didn't get as far as you wanted to. And then I just usually have a little comment like, oh, it looks like maybe you should have been a three, you know, next time, you know, if you're a three, there's nothing wrong with being a three. And I always make such a big deal, you know, nothing wrong with being a three, nothing wrong with being in a five.
There's no judgment. And that takes a while to build that kind of comfort. So like next time, maybe instead of going with the ones, maybe you should be a three or if you think you're a one and then you go off and you discover you're a three, you can always come back.
And so just, and then the next time we go, I just would remind the whole class before we dismiss, oh, if you discover it, you're actually a one, it's not a big deal to come back. I mean, you're actually a three, five, whichever the lower one was. If you end up needing more help, you're always welcome back.
Like the door to come back and get more help is always open. And so it's part of like just establishing that culture.
Dave Eng:
Well, thank you, Mary-Ellen.
I think I got some great takeaways from our overall conversation. So I appreciate it. I just want to thank you for joining us today.
If people wanted to learn more about you, where can they find out more about you and your work online?
Mary-Ellen Fimble:
I think LinkedIn is the best place. I'm always quick to answer messages there and share my activities as well. So happy to connect with people there.
Dave Eng:
Great. I will include your LinkedIn link in the show notes. So thank you, Mary-Ellen.
Mary-Ellen Fimble:
Yeah, thank you so much, Dave.
Dave Eng:
I hope you found this episode useful. If you'd like to learn more than a great place to start, there's my free course on gamification. You can sign up for it at www.universityxp.com/gamification You can also get a full transcript of this episode, including links to references in the description or show notes. Thanks for joining us.
Again, I'm your host Dave Eng from Games-Based earning by University XP. On Experience Points, we explore different ways we can learn from games. So, if you liked this episode, please consider commenting, sharing, and subscribing.
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Visual Framework: Music Craft: Using Game Design Principles to Engage Young Musicians
Cite this Episode
Eng, D. (Host). (2026, February 15) Mary-Ellen Fimbel on Game Design Principles for Education. (No. 157) Video]. Experience Points. University XP. https://www.universityxp.com/video/157
Internal Ref: UXPH6SMTJUR4
References
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