Episode 92: AP Table Talk: Pick-up and Deliver
AP Table Talk: Pick-up and Deliver
Episode Summary:
In this episode of AP Table Talk, Brian and Dave discuss pick-up and deliver games. They start by reminiscing about their experiences with such games, including their favorite titles like Bus and Flash Point: Fire Rescue. They also mention other notable games like Clank! and Earth Reborn. They share their likes and dislikes about the pick-up and deliver mechanic, highlighting the importance of clear objectives and significant gameplay. They discuss variations within the genre, such as hidden movement combined with pick-up and deliver mechanics. The episode concludes with a discussion on the efficiency of pick-up and deliver mechanics.
Brian Eng:
Hello and welcome to AP Table Talk, a podcast where we explore board games and what makes them interesting to us. My name is Brian and I'm joined by someone who, not unlike the Statue of Liberty, many people think he's a New Yorker, but he actually lives in New Jersey.
Dave Eng:
That's right, that's me.
Brian Eng:
My cohost and cousin, Dave. Dave, how's it going?
Dave Eng:
Hey, I'm doing good. Thanks for having us back.
Brian Eng:
Yeah.
Dave Eng:
Me back, for the show.
Brian Eng:
It's been a bit for... We took a little break from recording.
Dave Eng:
Yep.
Brian Eng:
But we're back here. The listeners won't know the difference, I suppose.
Dave Eng:
They will definitely not know the difference.
Brian Eng:
Yes.
Dave Eng:
What are we talking about today, Brian?
Brian Eng:
Today, our episode is about... What are we doing today? We're doing pick-up and deliver. Yes, okay. When I think of that board game mechanic, the first thing that comes to mind is a game where you've got items out on the board, resources or something like that, and you're moving around, you're trying to collect them and bring them from one location to another. I think that I group it in with what I think is called route building games, but it's a little different. I think route building, you just connect the points. You don't actually move the-
Dave Eng:
Like transport.
Brian Eng:
... physically move the goods or move the items from one spot to another.
Dave Eng:
Yeah.
Brian Eng:
You just worry about actually making the connections. I think my favorite would probably be Brass Birmingham, would be a route building game.
Dave Eng:
Maybe also Voyages of Marco Polo. I don't know if you've had the opportunity to play that, but I remember there…
Brian Eng:
I think that's on our list. That's on Board Game Arena, right? I think that's on my list of ones I-
Dave Eng:
I played it in person. I don't know if I've played-
Brian Eng:
Okay. I don't think I've played it with you.
Dave Eng:
No.
Brian Eng:
I think I saw it on there and I added it to my, "I want to play that game," so maybe we'll play it in prep for when we do route building.
Dave Eng:
Right. Right. All right. Yeah, I think that covers, I guess, a lot of what I wanted to talk about too for this episode. But since you provided your personal definition, Brian, I'm going to provide the definition that is on BoardGameGeek.
Brian Eng:
Sounds good.
Dave Eng:
You said, again, in this episode, we're going to be talking about the pick-up and deliver mechanic, and by this we mean, a quote from BoardGameGeek, "This mechanism usually requires players to pick up an item or good at one location on the playing board and bring it to another location on the playing board. Initial placement of the item can be either predetermined or random. The delivery of the good usually gives the player money to do more actions with. And in most cases, there is a game rule or another mechanic that determines where the item needs to go." That's the official definition from BoardGameGeek.
Brian Eng:
Okay.
Dave Eng:
This episode, we're going to dive deeper into what we mean about the pick-up and deliver mechanics in the games we played, but hopefully that provides you, the audience, with a really good overview on what that mechanic is.
Brian Eng:
Yeah. They're a little more wordy, but I think I pretty much, I hit the nail there there with my definition.
Dave Eng:
Basically, it's take something from one place and bring it to another place.
Brian Eng:
Move it to another. Right.
Dave Eng:
For money or points or whatnot. We'll get into the minutia as the episode goes on.
Brian Eng:
All right. Should we get into some examples of some pick-up and deliver and we'll do our little role for initiative here?
Dave Eng:
Yep. Those of you who are listening who are not familiar with this, both Brian and I, we have a D20. Even though we are separated by space, we're both going to roll it at the same time. Whoever rolls the highest number is going to lead off that part of the discussion. Now we're going to both roll at the same time in three, two, one.
Brian Eng:
All right, I'm ready.
Dave Eng:
Go.
Brian Eng:
I got a 12.
Dave Eng:
I have an 18.
Brian Eng:
Okay.
Dave Eng:
All right.
Brian Eng:
So the first example you can give us is, I think we said the biggest pick-up and deliver game in your opinion, or the most noteworthy for you.
Dave Eng:
Sure. I have two that I want to talk about.
Brian Eng:
Okay.
Dave Eng:
But I also want to point out, when we were doing the research for this episode, I looked up on BoardGameGeek, the number of pick-up and deliver games out there that are tagged with this mechanic, and there's over 2,600 pick-up and deliver games. So to say that it is a popular mechanic, I think is highly truthful. I had a hard time trying to come through with my first example, which is my most noteworthy and biggest pick-up and deliver game, in my opinion. I'm going to take a... I'm thinking about two right now, and these are games that are earlier in my gaming career. They're both cooperative games, which I think is funny because neither Brian or I really like playing cooperative games. With some exceptions, I would say.
Brian Eng:
Yes. Yes.
Dave Eng:
The number one…
Brian Eng:
You've introduced me to some exceptions to it, but-
Dave Eng:
That's true. We played-
Brian Eng:
I actually thought you'd liked cooperative more than I thought, but.
Dave Eng:
Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess it's not in my-
Brian Eng:
More than me.
Dave Eng:
That's true. You like the highly competitive games.
Brian Eng:
Right.
Dave Eng:
I guess, right now I'm not playing a lot of cooperative games, but I could in the future. Who knows? I'm open. But my top two would be, the number one cooperative game, Forbidden Desert. I think it's noteworthy because in Forbidden Desert, unlike Forbidden Island, which is part of the Forbidden line by Matt Leacock who's the designer, in Forbidden Desert, you need to go about the desert to collect these different items that make up your flying ship in order for all of you to cooperatively escape the desert. So the pickup and delivery part here is to first discover where these items are in the desert by moving around the map, going there, picking up that item, and then bringing it all to the individual takeoff site. And also-
Brian Eng:
Okay. Oh, sorry, go ahead.
Dave Eng:
Oh, okay. This game has a funny story for me because I went on a date one time and I told the woman that I was into board games and I brought for Forbidden Desert with me, and we played it on a very too small bistro table. What I've learned now is that, one, probably bringing board games to a first date is not the best move and, two, if you're going to play Forbidden Desert, do not play it on a 12-inch by 12-inch circular bistro table, because that was a bad time. What were you going to say, Brian?
Brian Eng:
Sorry, I'll go back to my other point, but I'll say your first point, I mean I've been out of the dating game a lot longer than you, but I don't think there's a problem with bringing board games on a date, because if you want to meet someone who's into board games, well, you're going to know that right off the bat then.
Dave Eng:
Yeah.
Brian Eng:
I mean, I wouldn't bring Twilight Imperium.
Dave Eng:
There was only one date, I'll tell you all that much.
Brian Eng:
Okay. Well, maybe that's not the board game, huh?
Dave Eng:
Oh, yeah, Brian, I guess not. But again, now that I know, I probably wouldn't have chosen Forbidden Desert or chosen something that is... takes up much less table space.
Brian Eng:
I think a light game would be fine.
Dave Eng:
Right. Right.
Brian Eng:
But yeah, again, I wouldn't put Twilight Imperium out on the table or anything like that.
Dave Eng:
No, no, definitely not. But speaking of light, the second game that comes close to my most noteworthy is Flash Point: Fire Rescue.
Brian Eng:
Oh, okay. All right. Sorry, let me cut you off there.
Dave Eng:
Okay.
Brian Eng:
Just going to go back to Forbidden Desert. I have played Forbidden Desert before. Just to go back and actually now I know you're second. These are actually two cooperative games I have played, which I thought was interesting that they're definitely not up there for me, but you have picked two that I have actually played.
Dave Eng:
That's true.
Brian Eng:
Go ahead, on to Flash Point.
Dave Eng:
Well, I would even say, Brian, you have Flash Point: Fire Rescue and all-
Brian Eng:
I do.
Dave Eng:
... of the expansions, correct?
Brian Eng:
Almost all. Yes. Yes. Missing a couple.
Dave Eng:
Oh, okay. But it still remains gathering dust on your shelf.
Brian Eng:
We've played it. My wife, Violet, does like it. I got it as my alternative to Pandemic, which I know is very popular, but it's not up there for me as my favorite game, although I haven't played any of the Pandemic Legacy. I wonder if that would change it for me at all.
Dave Eng:
I hear good things about Pandemic Legacy, so it might.
Brian Eng:
My gaming group, when I'm not there, they play the World of Warcraft Pandemic.
Dave Eng:
I'm not familiar with that one.
Brian Eng:
I don't know what's different about that. Because Pandemic is so popular, it's now getting the licensing themed treatment of re-releasing under a bunch of themes. They said there is some differences there, and they're all into video games and stuff, so they enjoy it and they know that I won't play cooperative games with them.
Dave Eng:
Well, now, there you go. I'm proud to say that I selected two that you've played before and one of them that you've own. I'm going to talk a little bit about it later, but Flash Point: Fire Rescue is still tagged as a pick-up and deliver game, although I feel like it plays with a convention of what pick-up and deliver is because in Flash Point you are trying to find different victims in the house, people or pets, and then bring them out of the house. So I guess, picking them up from the house and then removing them from the house.
Brian Eng:
Yeah, I would still say it's not the primary mechanic that I would think of when I think of Flash Point, but I would call that the pick-up and deliver mechanic. I will agree though, when I looked at the list on BoardGameGeek, there are definitely games tagged as pick-up and deliver that I think stretch the definition a little bit.
Dave Eng:
Yeah, I agree.
Brian Eng:
But we can talk about that in the other segments.
Dave Eng:
Right. So that's my example number one, Brian. You want to do yours?
Brian Eng:
Okay, for number one. So my biggest one for me is... I don't know if we've played this together. I'll give you a hint, see if you can figure it out here. It's the design by Paul Dennen, who is the designer of my favorite game. I think I would call it my favorite game, Dune: Imperium. And it's generally, if I had to pick one mechanic for the game, I would actually classify it as a deck building game, but it has pick-up and deliver. It has drafting.
Dave Eng:
Oh, is it Clank?
Brian Eng:
It's got some push your luck. Yeah, specifically, I chose Clank in Space for myself because that's the one I own. I like sci-fi more than fantasy. And now in Clank in Space... So in Clank, you're building a deck and you're moving... So in Clank in Space, you're moving through a ship and you're kind of stowaways, and you're trying to steal some treasure and then escape off the ship. In order to do that, you must pick up, well, you're gathering treasure, but you're also gathering items that allow you to unlock further... to get further into the ship. And you have to bring them from one place to the other, which is the pick-up and deliver. Now, I'm assuming there are similar mechanics in Clank. Again, I wouldn't call it the primary mechanic that I would think of, but it has that pick-up and deliver aspect.
Dave Eng:
Aspect to it. I think I do bring up Clank later on in the show.
Brian Eng:
Okay.
Dave Eng:
Yeah, it does have pick-up and deliver in it because you're trying to get those relics, at least in the vanilla, original Clank. Clank in Space, I think I've only played once, but it's generally the same, I would say, it's just a different theme.
Brian Eng:
I think the one thing that I... I mean, I like sci-fi more, but the reason I went with that one when I bought it was there was a mechanic that you can do in Clank where you can essentially run in, grab one piece and then just run out immediately. In Clank in Space, they made it so that you have to reach this particular terminal inside the ship before you can get to the escape pods to leave.
Dave Eng:
Oh, I see.
Brian Eng:
So, that strategy of just running in and just running out is eliminated from Clank in Space.
Dave Eng:
I see.
Brian Eng:
And I thought that, "Yeah, you know what? With some of the guys I game with, I could see them just doing that."
Dave Eng:
Nice. Well, that's a solid first example.
Brian Eng:
All right. Okay, so we'll move on to the second. So, this is your first pick-up and deliver that you have you ever played or that you recall playing.
Dave Eng:
Okay. And it's going back to me now?
Brian Eng:
Yep.
Dave Eng:
Okay. So again, I have two here. The first pick-up and deliver game I ever played, Bri, I think you remember this, it's Istanbul. That's what was tagged on BGG. I remember playing it with you down in the basement, ironically, where you're recording right now.
Brian Eng:
Yes. Yes.
Dave Eng:
So I had never played a game like that before, and I thought that the objective in the outcome is quite clear as someone who's just discovering modern table-top games the first time, it's like, "Okay, pick-up something here, I move it here, I turn it in for money," or I forget what else points or something else. So I would say Istanbul would be the first pick-up and deliver game I played. In addition, I also want to say that when it comes to addressing pick-up and deliver games now, if I were to introduce someone to the mechanic, I would actually choose this game, and I don't know if you're familiar with it, called Deep Sea Adventure. It's by Oink. It's one of the small box games.
Brian Eng:
No, I am not familiar with that one.
Dave Eng:
This one, again, it pushes the definition of pick-up and deliver. Basically, it is a small box game where everyone's rolling dice, and those dice determine how far "you can dive" with your diver. And the deeper you dive, the more likely you are to pick up a really worthwhile treasure that's worth more points. However, all the divers that are diving, that you're competing with, the other players, you all share the same oxygen supply.
Brian Eng:
Oh, okay.
Dave Eng:
And that's like the the "timer." You could dive down deeper to get something bigger, but you're going to take longer to come up. And once the oxygen supply runs out, anyone who's not back just loses whatever treasure they have. So I'd say Istanbul's the first one. But if I were to introduce someone to their first pick-up and deliver game, I would choose Deep Sea Adventure. How about you?
Brian Eng:
So, I actually think we played Istanbul at PAX first.
Dave Eng:
Oh, PAX East. I thought I remember playing it in your basement.
Brian Eng:
Yeah, we probably did because when we played it with your buddies at PAX, I bought it after that because-
Dave Eng:
Oh, I see.
Brian Eng:
Yes. I enjoyed that game a lot. Okay, so the first pick-up and deliver game that I played, and I actually, I had to do some research to remember the game. It was a long time. I played it back in early 2000s. I was in second or third year, I think. I don't think you'll guess this one, but I'm going to give you some hints and see if you can get it.
Dave Eng:
Okay. Let's see.
Brian Eng:
It's got network building. It's got pick-up deliver. It's got worker placement, and it's got time travel.
Dave Eng:
Is it a Anachrony?
Brian Eng:
Not that that is a mechanic, but no. I don't think you can get it. It's called Bus.
Dave Eng:
Bus? Which is B-U-S?
Brian Eng:
Don't know if you've ever played the game called Bus. B-U-S.
Dave Eng:
No, I've never played that game.
Brian Eng:
Okay. It was designed by, I don't know how to say his name, Jeroen Doumen and Joris Wiersinga. It's from 1999. I remember playing it, somebody had just introduced it, and this was when I started getting into the designer board games, and I had to find a picture of the board to remember. So it's kind of like a city, the board is a city, and you're placing down different locations. I believe it was a pub, a home, and a jobs. And you place people on the board, and on your turn, time goes around to different times of the days. And when it's nighttime, you have to get people home. Daytime, you get people to work, and evening you get people to the pub.
Dave Eng:
Oh, interesting.
Brian Eng:
And so depending on what time it is on your turn, you're trying to create bus routes where you can... So you're creating the network where you're moving the people from whatever location they were in the last round and trying to get them to the location they're supposed to be based on the date.
Dave Eng:
Oh, I see. Okay.
Brian Eng:
And you do this by placing the worker placement part. And I actually think this might be one of the earliest worker placement games, because that's pretty early for a worker placement game, I think. So you're doing worker placement to do actions where you're building your routes, or choosing to put people down. And one of the options you can do is actually stop time. But every time you do that you add a counter and it's actually an end game counter, because I think if you stop time a certain number of times, you break the space-time continuum. It's really strange.
Dave Eng:
That's very dramatic.
Brian Eng:
And actually, I would actually like to find... I think this game probably still holds up. And I believe there was actually a remake. I missed it. Someone did a remake of it. I don't know when, and I think I missed it. It was probably right when I had gotten into Kickstart or something. They redid all the art and everything and made it nice. But it's a little obscure, but I think it has a little bit of a following when I read the forums and stuff when I was trying to figure out what game it was.
Dave Eng:
Oh, interesting.
Brian Eng:
So yeah, Bus, that was the first pick-up and deliver game I played.
Dave Eng:
I want to play it. Do you have it?
Brian Eng:
Look, I don't have it. I would like to find it, but it's so old and out of print that I don't know. I know that new version, they're selling for a lot, so I might get you to look for it a little bit in the States, because you'll probably have a better chance of finding it. I'll talk to you later about that.
Dave Eng:
I really want to play. '99 is not that, I think, inaccessible. I think you should be able to find it.
Brian Eng:
The new version would been made much later than that. '99 was when the original came out.
Dave Eng:
Right. Right. But I mean, if you're even looking for an original copy. I don't know. I'm intrigued.
Brian Eng:
Honestly, I would take the new version because that's probably easier to get and it wouldn't be nearly as expensive.
Dave Eng:
Yeah, that's true. Cool, Bus.
Brian Eng:
Yeah, we should definitely try and hunt that one down.
Dave Eng:
Yeah. All right.
Brian Eng:
All right.
Dave Eng:
Should we do number three? Which one is this one?
Brian Eng:
On to your favorite pick-up and deliver game.
Dave Eng:
Okay, so I'm leading again?
Brian Eng:
Yeah, go for it.
Dave Eng:
All right. I got two again and I want to offer up here. My number one, I would say, which is ironic because I don't think I've ever won the game, would be Caravan, because we played it at PAX East a few years ago.
Brian Eng:
Yes.
Dave Eng:
I remember it was like two games I picked up. It was Caravan and Kerala. And I liked Caravan a lot, even though I lost.
Brian Eng:
Was Kerala the elephant one?
Dave Eng:
Kerala's the elephant one, yeah.
Brian Eng:
Yes, okay, okay. I remember that.
Dave Eng:
Yeah it was those two, Kerala's still on my want and trade list. But I picked up Caravan and I liked it because it was just basically, it's just pick-up and deliver in its purest form. It just goods appear here, bring it here-
Brian Eng:
It's a solid game.
Dave Eng:
... for points.
Brian Eng:
Yep.
Dave Eng:
But they have the thief token, which has a smidge of take that, you know what I mean?
Brian Eng:
Right. Yes.
Dave Eng:
And I don't feel like I use the thief enough. I basically just play it as a logistics game of like, "Okay, how can I get this good here from here to here in the least amount of turns possible?" And I completely forget about the thief.
Brian Eng:
I also don't tend to use the thief, but I do try to block your path because you have to pay it, if you want to put your... So in this case, you're placing your camels down and you're basically creating a connection to try and bucket brigade goods to a certain location. And if you want to place your camel on a place where an opponent's camel's already, it's an extra action because you get what, is like four actions on your turn…
Dave Eng:
Yeah, two action points.
Brian Eng:
... four actions on your turn or whatever. So I don't necessarily use the thief token enough either, but I do try to block your path a lot.
Dave Eng:
Okay. Well, that makes a lot more sense as to why I was constantly behind in the point race. I'm like, "The gap keeps getting bigger and bigger."
Brian Eng:
Right. It's one of those things. Action economy. I like to min-max that.
Dave Eng:
Well, I got to think about that now. But I was going to say, my only other real regret about that game is that depending on where your camel is, when there's a restock action, so when there's new goods coming on the table, if you're in the right position, you just could get gifted an opportunity where you just have a two move delivery to make.
Brian Eng:
There is a little bit of, it could be a little bit of luck that swings in that one. But it's not too bad. I mean, for the weight of the game, I think that's acceptable. I agree. I like that game too. That was another one we played in preparation for this episode, actually.
Dave Eng:
Yeah, we played that on BGA.
Brian Eng:
I actually forgot about when the new goods come out, because I remember you camp on the...
Dave Eng:
You camp on that spot.
Brian Eng:
... on your spots because it makes any good that hasn't been picked up, it increases their value by one and the new goods come out and stuff. So you don't want to be the one who causes it to refresh. You want to leave it for the other person to do.
Dave Eng:
Exactly. On a side note, I really like, from a tactile sensation, how all the camels are designed in such a way so that they fit the cubed good, right on its back. And if you steal it, it fits immediately-
Brian Eng:
It goes underneath.
Dave Eng:
... underneath the camel too. So production quality for the components I think is great, even though I haven't been able to win a game of Caravan. Okay, second game I would say, other than-
Brian Eng:
Yes, go for it.
Dave Eng:
... Caravan, I would actually go with Star Wars: Outer Rim, which was also indicated on BGG as a pick-up and deliver. But I think it's funny here because for those of you who don't know, Star Wars: Outer Rim, you're playing the bounty hunters, the smugglers, the scoundrel, the scum of the galaxy. So sometimes you're working as a bounty hunter, sometimes you're working as a smuggler, but you got to take your bounty or your smuggled goods from one part of the galaxy to the other part, which I think is cool and I think fits in with the theme of this game and what it's meant to be. But I like that aspect because I feel like, again, pick-up and deliver is a very clean mechanic. I just take the goods from here, I bring them over there, get some cash, and then I move on my way.
Brian Eng:
Interesting. Okay. So I own Star Wars: Outer Rim, and it was in my short list for my favorite pick-up and delivers. However, so I've played that with my gaming group and we feel that it needs... Something was missing. We house-ruled a couple things after a couple games. Certain things like the patrols, they didn't feel impactful enough. It felt like it needed a little work still. I haven't played the expansion, Unfinished Business.
Dave Eng:
I haven't played that either.
Brian Eng:
When I eventually pick that up, it'll probably hit the table again with them and we'll see if that improves it for me. The game I did pick for my favorite is actually, you picked it in a previous choice of yours, is actually Istanbul.
Dave Eng:
Oh, okay. Nice.
Brian Eng:
Yeah. And again, the reason I remember playing it at PAX, from the first time we played that, I love that game. It has a lot of things I like.
Dave Eng:
It has a modular board. Right.
Brian Eng:
I love the modular board, which gives you that variable starting. I like trying to hunt down that efficient path. It's almost like path building, engine building thing. A lot of the interesting way that you use your assistants to move around the board, you have to either land on one or leave one. That was really interesting to me. That's actually my favorite pick-up and deliver game on my picks here.
Dave Eng:
Brian Eng:
Yeah. Yeah.
Dave Eng:
Number one?
Brian Eng:
Number one for me.
Dave Eng:
No runners up?
Brian Eng:
Again, it might've been Star Wars. And you know what? I'm looking at that, I don't know if it's on Game Found, they have a... They're doing a re-release, deluxified release of Firefly: The Game with all the expansions in it, and I'm thinking about backing that.
Dave Eng:
Oh, okay. Well, I can't say I'm a fan of the Firefly IP because I never watched it, but I hear good things.
Brian Eng:
Oh, then you're missing out. You need to watch that, first of all.
Dave Eng:
Okay. Well, that and The Expanse. I think you tried to turn me onto and I was... I tried to watch The Expanse and I was like, "Ah, no, I'm never getting into it."
Brian Eng:
I think you would like Firefly.
Dave Eng:
Brian Eng:
You should definitely watch Firefly. And it's not a big commitment. And you'll be sad after, when you find out.
Dave Eng:
Well, it's only two seasons, isn't it, of Firefly?
Brian Eng:
And a movie. Yeah.
Dave Eng:
Oh. Oh, there's a movie, I didn’t know that…
Brian Eng:
Yeah, they crowdfunded a movie essentially.
Dave Eng:
I see.
Brian Eng:
But yeah, I might get that. So Star Wars: Outer Rim was kind of labeled as Firefly light.
Dave Eng:
Oh, really? Okay.
Brian Eng:
Yeah.
Dave Eng:
All right. Well, I do like um…
Brian Eng:
So maybe the things that I'm missing are in the Firefly game.
Dave Eng:
Nice.
Brian Eng:
All right.
Dave Eng:
All right. Does that bring us to the end of this section?
Brian Eng:
Yeah, that's our examples. We'll move on to our discussions of what we like and don't like about the mechanic itself, just in general. So shall we do our roll for initiative again?
Dave Eng:
Yep. So we're going to roll our D20s. Whoever has the highest roll is going to lead. So three, two, one, roll.
Brian Eng:
All right. Here we go. I got 15.
Dave Eng:
All right. I have two.
Brian Eng:
Okay. All right. So I'll start us off here on-
Dave Eng:
Go ahead.
Brian Eng:
... on my first like. Okay, so a really simple one for me to start with is just conceptually, the mechanic is very simple to understand, and I find that because of that, it works really well with pretty much any theme. I mean, obviously there's the obvious ones. I mean, railroad game and shipping games are very popular. So Age of Steam and Steam and all those games will fit into the pick-up and deliver very easily. But outside of that, I mean we've talked about space games. There are pirate games that could easily fit that. Western games, like Western Legends I think has some pick-up and deliver. I like that game as well. Just, it's a mechanic that can very easily fit into anything. It's easy to understand and easy to teach, I think, because... I mean, a beginner, it wouldn't have a problem understanding like, "Oh yeah, okay, you're just trying to get this item from here to there, and that's it."
Dave Eng:
Yeah, exactly. Oh, did you have anything else to add? I wanted to go into…
Brian Eng:
You can go ahead on, or if you have something to talk about that one or one of your likes, and we'll go back and forth.
Dave Eng:
Oh, yeah. Well, my first like is actually, I think almost exactly the same as what you said. So it's clear directive and direction, like you said. It's very easy to teach someone who's new to tabletop games, board games, particularly with something like Caravan, which is what I use for the example, because it's like you have action points. It costs an action to place a camel. It costs an action to pick up a good, it costs an action to move the good along your line of camels, and then you deliver it and then you get points based on it. So like I said before, it's very much a logistics game, at least for me. That's how I was looking at Caravan.
Brian Eng:
Absolutely, yes.
Dave Eng:
I have another game as an example, but is there anything else, Bri, you wanted to provide for number one?
Brian Eng:
No, I mean that's it, so go ahead and give your example on that.
Dave Eng:
Okay. So the funny part here, and I remember this going back to when we were kids, is do you remember Dragon Realms, the text-based online RPG?
Brian Eng:
Yes. Yes, I do remember Dragon Realms.
Dave Eng:
Okay. This reminds me of Dragon Realms because I had two characters on Dragon Realms. The first character was a thief. Do you remember what the profession of the second character was?
Brian Eng:
Ah, I don't. I'm going to be surprised because I would usually remember these things, but I don't know why this is blanking for me.
Dave Eng:
Well, the second character was a trader. And the trader basically is, you have a caravan of mules, you go to one city, you go to the trading outpost, you load up your caravan of mules with a bunch of stuff, and then you bring it to the other town and to the trading outpost there. You deliver it and then you gain money. And I remember I was like, "Could I be a thief, or could I be like this middle-ages trucker, Middle Ages trucker in this realm?" And I spent most of my time being the trader, and I would take the money from the trader and I would give it to my thief character. And I had to have my thief buy a bunch of crazy weapons and stuff. But basically, that's why I liked it. Even my friend was making fun of me because, "You could be any character and you decided to be a trucker in this universe?" And I was like, "Yeah, it's really easy to make this money. You just pick up stuff from one place. You deliver it to another and they pay you off. That's it."
Brian Eng:
Oh man, it's been a long time since I thought about that game.
Dave Eng:
It's still going. I don't know if you know that.
Brian Eng:
Oh, I'm sure it is. Sure it is.
Dave Eng:
I think they still have a subscription service, but there's still a demand for text-based RPG.
Brian Eng:
Nice. Okay. Well, so I'll go onto my next one, and we've touched on it a little bit, is really just that I really enjoy planning out and making those efficient moves and paths where maybe it's that I'm, in Caravan, maybe, "Oh, I can deliver three goods on this one path and block you at the same time." Or in Outer Rim it's like, "Okay, well, I have to go all the way to the other side of the galaxy, but I can pick up bounty here and pick up some upgrades here on the way," and getting your moves efficiently using... Just stopping at the right points and having it all fit together is really fulfilling when that works out.
Dave Eng:
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, you done, Bri? Do you want me to go ahead?
Brian Eng:
Yeah, go ahead.
Dave Eng:
So you talked about it as that efficiency move with Caravan. I'm a little bit different here. I said I like it because it's a motion-oriented mechanic. And in my specific example here was Mint Delivery, which is part of the Mint Tin Games, which is exactly as you think it would be. It's a pick-up delivery game in a Mint Tin. And you're again trying to figure out what is the biggest bang for your buck. If I have these actions, how do I get these goods from this factory over to this location in order to basically return it for points or cash or money, or something else that helps multiply game action?
And I specifically said it's a motion-oriented mechanic. Because the other thing I was thinking about is, and I looked this up as a TV trope, and as Star Wars fans, we both watch The Mandalorian, and I feel like a lot of what fans like to say is, "This episode is just a Mando Fetch Quest. He's just got to go to point A, pick up the McGuffin or whatever, and then bring it to point B. And that's the episode." So whenever you need someone to do something, like pick-up and deliver our Fetch Quest, is a very solid narrative convention in order to get that character to do it, I feel.
Brian Eng:
Interesting take on that because it's almost one of... Oh, I guess not. Yeah, it's definitely your basic RPG, your basic RPG quest.
Dave Eng:
Yeah, exactly.
Brian Eng:
That first quest of either take this... It's either the pick-up and deliver quest or the go kill some rats quest as your two first quests.
Dave Eng:
Yeah, exactly.
Brian Eng:
All right. Awesome. Okay, well, I'll go on to my third like here. And again, it's something we touched on earlier. The mechanic, because of its simplicity, it really synergizes well with other mechanics. Point to point movement obviously. We've talked about games with drafting, with route building. It can fit in with auctions and bidding. I know we've talked about other games with contracts, filling contracts with your pick-up and delivers. In fact, your game that we worked on together, Sloop-
Dave Eng:
Air Sloop?
Brian Eng:
... I would say. Yeah, Air Sloop has contracts and pick-up and deliver.
Dave Eng:
Exactly.
Brian Eng:
Yeah. That's something I like as something to use in trying to design games.
Dave Eng:
Yeah, I would say that it's...
Brian Eng:
Yeah, it's just something that really... It's a simple mechanic and it can really just fit in with almost anything.
Dave Eng:
Yeah, I would even say that it's easy to add, take away. Well, I don't know about takeaway, but I think it's easy to add to a game that already has a lot of other mechanics going on.
Brian Eng:
Right. Yeah.
Dave Eng:
It's something I want to talk about later. My like would be as similar to yours, however, I would say it resonates really well on a theme of picking up and deliver things or people, and I have three examples here. So number one is that Air Sloop, which is the game that I designed and Brian helped co-develop. That game is very much a pick-up and deliver, pick up goods from one location, deliver it to another location, but you pick up the goods by traveling through different territories of that color. So it's something that I've used in my own designs and I feel pretty close to. However, and I'm going to discuss this a little bit more later in this episode, we've talked about pick-up and deliver with items.
Another Kickstarter game that I have that I actually don't think gets a lot of love, but I think it's great is Taxi Derby. And Taxi Derby is exactly what it sounds. It's basically you're driving taxis or Ubers or Rideshare or whatever, you're picking up people from one location, you're dropping them off at another location to earn money for fares. You can turn that money into buying upgrades for your car so you can hold more passengers, or you have a better stereo system, or you're faster so you can outrun the cops and other things. And then there's another game which I haven't had the opportunity to play yet, but I want to, which is Freedom: The Underground Railroad where you're trying to help people who are previously enslaved leave those states through the underground railroad.
So I think in Taxi Derby and Freedom: The Underground Railroad, those are two games that are tagged as pick-up and deliver. But we have almost exclusively talked about just items so far, but these two games also use, I guess people as the components for moving them from one location to the other.
Brian Eng:
Yeah. I mean, I had Bus. That was people.
Dave Eng:
Oh, that's right. We talked about Bus already.
Brian Eng:
But yeah, I agree. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess Star Wars: Outer Rim kind of has everything.
Dave Eng:
Yeah, a little bit of everything.
Brian Eng:
There's bounties, there's items, there's smuggling. But yeah, no, I agree. You generally think of resources first. I mean, that was it for my likes. Did you have more likes to go on?
Dave Eng:
No, I've got no more likes.
Brian Eng:
Okay. So we'll move on to dislikes here. I've got a couple.
Dave Eng:
Okay. Wait, Bri, are we going to die roll for this or do you want to die roll?
Brian Eng:
We can keep going or do you want to die roll.
Dave Eng:
Let's die roll. Keep it consistent. All right. So let's die roll for initiative.
Brian Eng:
All right. I'm ready.
Dave Eng:
Three, two, one, roll.
Brian Eng:
I got a six.
Dave Eng:
All right. I have a two again, so you lead.
Brian Eng:
Oh, okay. All right. Okay. So I just have a couple here. My first one, so outside of my gaming group, I generally play low player count, generally two players actually. And what I find with a lot of pick-up and deliver games that I dislike is that low player counts can have very low player interaction in a lot of games, unless they specifically... Now, there are ways to counter that. Some games will reduce the size of the board and things like that. But I do find that generally you'll have, if you have more players, you're going to have more player interaction, which I prefer. I prefer to have more because it's more take that opportunities for me.
Dave Eng:
Mine is that I think, and you might talk about this later, but I think that there's a fine line between pick-up and deliver and contracts. Because something can be pick-up and deliver and contracts. But I think sometimes things get misnamed as pick-up and deliver when it's really just a contract.
Brian Eng:
Yes. Yes, and I agree. I think we probably might touch on that-
Dave Eng:
Talking about the same thing.
Brian Eng:
... later. And you know what? Okay, I did have something else to say about my first one, I realize. I talked about my favorite pick-up and deliver game Istanbul, and I actually have not picked up either expansion for it, even though it's my favorite. Because what each expansion in that... So in that game, the board that you move around is a four by four grid that is randomly or semi-randomly arranged locations. And each expansion adds either a column or a row to it.
Dave Eng:
Oh, I see.
Brian Eng:
And if you have both expansions, it creates it into as big as a five by five board. One of the complaints about that is that if you play it lower play account, the bigger the board, you kind of can end up not interacting with each other. And to me, that's a big part of that game is getting in the other opponent's way. So if you play with lower player counts, there's like, "Oh, you're better off not playing with the expansions." And since I mostly play two or sometimes three, I opted to not pick up those expansions.
Dave Eng:
Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah, I remember you talking about that. And that makes a lot of sense, especially if you want interaction. I was talking about pick-up and deliver in contracts before. Because I don't know if you're going to mention this, but we played Chocolate Factory on Board Game Arena, and that is tagged as pick-up and deliver. But I would argue to say that I don't think it's pick-up and deliver. I think it's more contracts than anything.
Brian Eng:
I mean, I guess you can get into the discussion of where something is delivered. You could argue that... Well, in Monopoly, I am picking up money from you when you land on my property and delivering it to my pile of money. And I'm like, "I don't think that fits within the spirit of what a pick-up and deliver game is."
Dave Eng:
That's correct.
Brian Eng:
I think it needs to be a location on the board that you have some sort of agency in actually moving an item from one location to the other.
Dave Eng:
Yeah. Yeah, I would agree.
Brian Eng:
Yeah. Yeah, Chocolate Factory was strange.
Dave Eng:
Yeah, I know. It was on my want in trade list, and after playing it, I was like, "I don't know if I really dig this game." It's by Alley Cat. I don't know if you've played other Alley Cat games, but I own Dice Hospital and there's a lot of the same structure, but I like Dice Hospital because it's cute.
Brian Eng:
I've seen you play Dice Hospital on-
Dave Eng:
On BGA?
Brian Eng:
... on BGA a bunch. I have not played it.
Dave Eng:
It's good. It's good.
Brian Eng:
Maybe I should play that one with you too.
Dave Eng:
It's not a whole lot of player interaction, I would say. It's mostly just drafting. That's the thing in both games.
Brian Eng:
I found the same with Chocolate Factory is like, "Okay, other than the draft..." And even the draft was done in a funny way.
Dave Eng:
Yeah, and groups of cards.
Brian Eng:
It's grouped, so if you pick one from one group, then that whole group gets eliminated for the other person.
Dave Eng:
Right. Right.
Brian Eng:
I don't know. I'm sure it changes something, but I was like, "Well, is it just so that there's more options out there?" Is that the way it is at higher player counts? I'm not sure.
Dave Eng:
Yeah, kind of.
Brian Eng:
But it was just strange.
Dave Eng:
Yeah. I'm glad I got to play it, but I don't think it's a game that I would go out on my way to play again.
Brian Eng:
Yeah, I agree.
Dave Eng:
You have a second dislike, Bri?
Brian Eng:
Yeah, I do have a second one. So one of the things that makes me like Istanbul that is a dislike is that if you don't have some variability, or if a more strictly pick-up and deliver game doesn't have good timing, where the game drags, I feel like it can start to feel very repetitive, very samey, like you're just running the same route over and over again. For example, in Caravan, if there wasn't the randomness of which goods came out, like if the same goods came out, I feel like you would get into a, "Oh, this is my most efficient route and I'm just going to do this over and over and over again."
Same with Istanbul. There's a suggested starting setup for the-
Dave Eng:
For the tiles.
Brian Eng:
... location tiles. And when I was introducing that game to people, I ended up playing that same beginner set up a few times in a row, and I started to really dislike. I just decided I would start teaching it with the randomness, because it was just like, "Okay, well, I'm going to destroy these people because I already know that I can do this, this, this, and unless they know to stop me, they're going to be suboptimal."
Dave Eng:
Right. Right. I mean, that's a case for a modular board setup, right?
Brian Eng:
Right. That's more that I like variability, but definitely if it's not taken care of in a pick-up and deliver, I can see that as a weakness of it. It's definitely has to be taken into account, I think.
Dave Eng:
I see. Okay. My second dislike-
Brian Eng:
Did you have anything else? Yeah, go ahead.
Dave Eng:
Yeah. Are we on second dislike right now?
Brian Eng:
Second, yeah. Yeah.
Dave Eng:
So mine I titled, "It can be convoluted if the reward or reason is not clear for pick-up and deliver." And again, I'm going back to the example of a game that we talked about before, which is Star Wars: Outer Rim. Again, it has pick-up and deliver. You can pick up goods, smuggled goods, or people if you're a bounty hunter. But what I thought was funny, and I remember reading this in the book when I was trying to learn it to play for it one day, which is what if you pick up a bounty for a character that is on your crew?
Because it happened to me. I had Chewbacca as a bounty. And Chewbacca was in my crew. And I remember the rule book saying you can do two things. You can ignore it and you just don't get anything. Or you could turn over one of your crew members for a bounty. And I was like, "That doesn't make..." And this crew member's providing me some sort of utility. I feel like I would be hard-pressed to give him up. But then I was like, "I guess thematically it works," because I’m scum, right?
Brian Eng:
Yeah. I think you got to think about it thematically. You got to think about does the payoff of the bounty outweigh the benefit you're getting from that crew member.
Dave Eng:
I guess, yeah.
Brian Eng:
And you talked about not watching Firefly and this situation, without spoiling anything, because I think you should go and watch Firefly, the situation comes up sort of, in a manner speaking. So I think thematically it works actually. And I get your point about if things are unclear, but I think in that game it works. Because of the theme. Because of the theme.
Dave Eng:
Yeah. Yeah. Now that I think about it with a theme, it works, but at the time I was like, "This makes no sense. Why would I turn over my own crew? This ship or whatever needs two crew to pilot. And if I give them up, then I'm not going to be able to fly the ship."
Brian Eng:
And it's actually great when the bounty is on someone else's crew.
Dave Eng:
Oh, yeah. And you got to go hunt them down and there’s player interaction?
Brian Eng:
That's great. Because then it's like now I really have a reason. It can't just be like, "Oh, you're close to me, so I'm just taking pot shots." He's like, "Nope, I'm going to hunt you down."
Dave Eng:
Yeah. All right. Should we go into…
Brian Eng:
That was it for dislikes for me. Did you have more?
Dave Eng:
Yeah, I have one more.
Brian Eng:
Okay, go ahead.
Dave Eng:
So dislike number three for me is... I titled this, "If it's the main mechanic, then make it significant. If not, then make it simple." And I have two examples I like to talk about here. The first one is a game called Niagara. And what's interesting about this is that it's a Spiel des Jahres winner from 2005. So I guess ancient news when it comes to hobby board games, but I "relatively knew" since we talked about Bus from 1999. But if you've never played Niagara before, I played this for the first time on a camp out and it's pretty cool because it is a game that you use the box as the board, and it's set up like the Niagara River.
And the Niagara River is a dual layered cutout, and the game provides you with these acrylic plastic discs. And on those discs is where you put a canoe. That canoe sits on a plastic disc. And as the game goes on, when you take turns, you move those plastic discs down the river and it moves all of the other discs off the board. When you fall off the board, that's when you go over Niagara Falls, basically.
Brian Eng:
Okay, gotcha.
Dave Eng:
It's cool. And it's set up because there's a fork in the river and you don't really know what side of the fork your canoe is going to end up on, so there's some variability there. But basically, that is the "toy factor" for the game.
Brian Eng:
Gotcha.
Dave Eng:
The pick-up and deliver part is the reason you're in this canoe is because there are these gems that are, for some reason, on the river, and the most valuable gems grow right next to the Niagara Falls. So you want to get in a position where you're close enough to the falls, where your canoe is there to pick up a gem, and then you use cards to paddle quickly so you don't fall off the falls. And once you get back to a point, you unload your gems and then you go back in the river interest to pick up some other gem. The theme's a little bit pasted on, but I really like the toy factor. It's a really cool game to put on the table and play.
Brian Eng:
Yeah. I mean, I've seen that game mentioned a lot, and I've never played it. Is that one on Board Game Arena?
Dave Eng:
That is on Board Game Arena, yeah.
Brian Eng:
Oh, I might have to give that one a try. Yeah.
Dave Eng:
We could play it later.
Brian Eng:
I don't know why, sometimes I see these games and they're talked about a lot, so clearly they're kind of staples if they've stuck around that long. But if it just doesn't catch me early, I just ignore it for the longest time. And I was like, "You know what? If it's been around, I probably should at least give it a play."
Dave Eng:
Yeah. You can play it at least. I played it a few times on BGA, but there's not a big following for it. So there's not a lot of games going on. The second game I bring this up with, and I go back to my title, if it's not going to be significant, then make it simple. Niagara, that's basically it. Other than the toy factor of the canoes, it's pick-up and deliver. You're picking up gems. You try to bring them back so that you can get points for them. When I played Merchants of the Dark Road, it had pick-up and deliver in a whole host of other mechanics. Did you get to play Merchants of the Dark Road, Bri?
Brian Eng:
I have not played that one.
Dave Eng:
Okay. That one's a big sprawling Euro game. There's a lot going on. There's contract fulfillment, there's pick-up and deliver. There's hidden missions and other things. It has kind of a cool rondel mechanic. But I just felt overwhelmed by everything that the game had to offer. And when it got into the pick-up and deliver, I'm like, "I don't even want to worry about that. I'm trying to worry about how I'm going to get these people inside of my cart, so I can bring them around to score points to do these other things." And I just felt it was like, "Let's throw some pick-up and deliver in this game, and it'll add some flavor." But for me, I was like, "I prefer games that find that one thing and do that one thing really well." You can do multiple things, but I think they should serve that single purpose.
Brian Eng:
Yes, I agree.
Dave Eng:
Right. So that's it for me for dislikes. You have anything else?
Brian Eng:
Okay. No, I think we're done with the likes and dislikes, so we can move on to our, I guess, our twists and variations on pick-up and deliver.
Dave Eng:
Yeah. Yeah. And we are going to lead with a die roll again?
Brian Eng:
Sure….
Dave Eng:
Okay. So I'm going to roll on my side. Three, two, one.
Brian Eng:
I got a five.
Dave Eng:
I have 16.
Brian Eng:
Oh, all right.
Dave Eng:
Back to me.
Brian Eng:
Yes.
Dave Eng:
All right. So I've got three twists and variations. And then my number one, we talked a little bit about this before, is the difference between beings versus goods when you're picking up and delivering them. I know that we talked about this earlier before. One thing I wanted to point out is that Geoff Engelstein, who again wrote the book on board game mechanics that we're basing a lot of this podcast on, he was actually part of a study that included... Brad, do you remember the game Diamant or Incan Gold? Have you ever played that? It's like a push your luck game.
Brian Eng:
Sounds familiar. I'm trying to remember if I've played it.
Dave Eng:
It's basically, you were trying to go into this temple to pick-up treasures, but there could be curses or creatures in temples.
Brian Eng:
Okay, I think I might've played it. Anyways, go on. I think I might've played it.
Dave Eng:
So the reason I bring this up is because in this study, which I'll link to in the show notes, Geoff uses this game and specifically tries to determine what affects the player experience. And what he discovered was that people were less likely to push their luck in a game like Incan Gold, where you're trying to push their luck to gain treasures. Then they took the same game and they re-themed it to something like Flash Point: Fire Rescue, which is how much do you want to push your luck to try to rescue this puppy or this person?
Brian Eng:
Ah, interesting.
Dave Eng:
And with the theme changed, people were much more likely to push their luck to try to rescue someone than to try to gain treasure, which I think is unique.
Brian Eng:
Okay, so putting that emotional investment.
Dave Eng:
Exactly. Exactly. And then the second part I wanted to add here is there's a game called Train by Brenda Romero, design in 2009, or released in 2009. Are you familiar with this game, Bri?
Brian Eng:
No.
Dave Eng:
Okay. So in this game, it was more designed as an art piece than anything else, but it... and why I did some research on it. Players are tasked with transporting passengers along a railway before their opponents do the same. So you talked about railway and line, route building and everything else before, so it's basically the same thing. So we see that very familiar pick-up and delivery mechanic in play here. However, since this game was developed as an art piece, at the end, it's revealed to players that the final destination for all of these passengers that they've been transporting is to a Nazi concentration camp, because players have been participating in a Holocaust.
So what I think is subverted here is that you as the player are just like, "Okay, this is the goal. I just bring these people to this place on this line." But you never really think about it. And I think that this game design as an art piece is meant to evoke the same. We don't really consciously think about who we're moving in the game, but this game replicates that real world scenario in which this took place. And it gets people to think about it. So I would say that there's a difference really in pick-up and delivery between transporting beings and also transporting goods.
Brian Eng:
Right. Yeah, no, that's interesting. Okay, well... Yeah, sorry, do you have more on that?
Dave Eng:
Oh no, I have nothing more, so you want to go for your first variation?
Brian Eng:
So there's definitely some variation in some games that have, the locations are predetermined. For example, we've brought up Caravan a lot, so the delivery locations are predetermined or random. Where Outer Rim, for example, is... Well, I mean, I guess they're predetermined in the scenario cards, but you don't know that until you get it.
Dave Eng:
They're randomized.
Brian Eng:
Yeah. There's some randomization, which keeps things... Again, goes back to that variability, but could be effect of balance of a game and things like that. I think of Great Western Trail, of delivering the cattle. So your place that you're delivering is always static.
Dave Eng:
Yeah. The towns or cities you're delivering to.
Brian Eng:
Right. Right. Things like that. And I mean, I guess that can also be... As could be similar or a second point, but those objectives of what you're delivering or picking up can be open information or it could be hidden. And again, that goes back to almost drawing that line between contract fulfillment and pick-up and deliver.
Dave Eng:
Yeah, I would say so.
Brian Eng:
But yeah, that's some variations you can have on that mechanic as well. Do you have some more?
Dave Eng:
Yeah, I have a number two, which actually builds off of yours, because I would like to... I titled this one, "I would like to see more combined hidden movement and pick-up and deliver."
Brian Eng:
Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
Dave Eng:
Have you ever played the game Fury of Dracula? It's like an all versus one game.
Brian Eng:
I've heard of it. Yeah, I've heard of it, and it was compared to, I guess maybe the evolution of Scotland Yard, which-
Dave Eng:
Oh, I haven't played Scotland Yard…
Brian Eng:
... I still have my original copy of Scotland Yard.
Dave Eng:
Oh, do you?
Brian Eng:
Yeah.
Dave Eng:
But Fury of Dracula is an all versus one game because one player plays as Dracula, and Dracula has hidden movement throughout the map, and other players play as the vampire hunters like Van Helsing who're trying to find and end Dracula. That was my very first hidden movement game, all versus one hidden movement game. And I thought it was really cool because basically we were playing as a cooperative team to try to find out where Dracula was and Dracula was doing his thing to try to evade us. But I think that not having that transparency of not knowing exactly what you're going to pick up, exactly where you're going to deliver it, and/or exactly how much the payoff is, I think would be an interesting change, because usually those are transparent things.
Brian Eng:
Right. Right.
Dave Eng:
Usually they're transparent because you need to make an educated decision on what route or contract is worth more. But I think combining hidden pick-up and deliver with hidden movement, like in an all versus one Fury of Dracula, I haven't seen before, but I would like to see. I think that would be a pretty interesting.
Brian Eng:
Yeah, I think it would be an interesting exercise in design. Because I think the first thing that comes to mind as a challenge is with that much information unavailable, does that limit the opponents', how much they're able to do for player interaction? Because if they don't know what you're doing or where you are, then is there any sort of strategy or how do you make it so that there's still a feeling that they can do something to hinder you or get ahead of you with so little information?
Dave Eng:
Yeah.
Brian Eng:
I think it would be an interesting exercise to design that.
Dave Eng:
I mean, now that you think about it, if it was Fury of Dracula and you just had a pick-up and deliver element, if you just know that Dracula has to go to this location, you guys can just stake out that location. But I would probably change it to, and say in round one, Dracula can deliver it to sites A, B, or C. You don't know-
Brian Eng:
Yeah, so now you have to kind of-
Dave Eng:
Split up.
Brian Eng:
Do you split up to all of them? Do you group up kind of thing?
Dave Eng:
And there's like six entry points to each, or four entry points. So you can't cover all of them, and you don't know the order in which Dracula will try to deliver.
Brian Eng:
Right. Right.
Dave Eng:
So you have some knowledge, but not enough to make an overwhelming strategic decision, I'd say.
Brian Eng:
So it's not quite pick-up and deliver, but some similar situation that I'm remembering, I have a game, I've only played the first or maybe the first two scenarios, called Earth Reborn.
Dave Eng:
Oh, I haven't heard of that yet.
Brian Eng:
It's a miniatures game. You have two teams and there's a bunch of scenarios, and it's basically very much like XCOM.
Dave Eng:
Oh, okay.
Brian Eng:
So it was easy for me to pick up and not so easy for Violet to pick up, which I was surprised that she wanted to play it. But she couldn't understand line of sight on a grid, so that's where we got stuck with that and then didn't play again. In one of the early learning scenarios, one team is infiltrating, and I believe they're trying to release or recover a prisoner. And the other side is defending. There are tokens that are used to represent possible locations of the prisoner. And you have three tokens, but only one of them has the prisoner. So you put them on the board and the attacking team, or the attacking player knows they have to go to one of those locations, but doesn't know which one has the prisoner in it.
Dave Eng:
Oh, okay.
Brian Eng:
So just tagging onto the design idea is maybe an idea like that where you know you have these locations, but you know you don't need to go in all of them. You have to pick one of them. And it might be the wrong one or maybe the right one. And as the defending side, you know which one is it, but if you send all your guys to defend the one where you know that the prisoner is, they're going to know that that's where the prisoner is. Or you can bluff it, that kind of thing.
Dave Eng:
Yeah, that sounds interesting.
Brian Eng:
So it was an interesting little exercise there that I think you can maybe apply that to that idea.
Dave Eng:
Oh, what game was that?
Brian Eng:
That was called Earth Reborn.
Dave Eng:
Earth Reborn, okay. All right. I haven't tried that, but I'd like to. All right.
Brian Eng:
It's a big box. We can play that next time you're visiting.
Dave Eng:
What are we on, twists and variations three?
Brian Eng:
Yeah. I have another one, and I couldn't come up with an example, so maybe you would, but I was thinking about whether you could have pick-up and deliver if you're always doing pick-up and deliver games on a common board. Or if there are games where you're doing pick-up and deliver on your own board. And generally, I think of ones where you're playing on a common board, but maybe you can think of... I didn't know if you could think of any, where you each have your own board and you're doing pick-up and deliver. I didn't know if that would be too isolated for that mechanic.
Dave Eng:
I don't know. I can't think of anything, at least that stays within the spirit of pick-up and deliver that is like a personal scale board that you're only doing there.
Brian Eng:
Right. Yeah. I couldn't think of one. And I felt like there were so many pick-up and deliver games. There must be one. But I couldn't think of one.
Dave Eng:
It's not a pure one, but I think, and I'm really stretching the definition here, with the game Machi, not Machi Koro, Fuji Koro I think is the game. You're inside of a volcano and you're trying pick up these elements to put in your inventory. And I really like this about this game, which was you put the items in your inventory. You'd put wood, they're cubes in a grid, and then you'd take steel and you'd put them in a grid and you'd make a little pixelated sword. And that is a sword that exists in your inventory. But that also affects other items you can put in your inventory. So a sword would be a really good weapon, but it takes up a lot of space and it's not very efficient with your space. You know what I mean? And that is like you pick up items from the main board and you deliver them to your board and it becomes a sword. But that really stretches the definition.
Brian Eng:
Yeah. The ones that kept coming into my head and probably just from a mechanic standpoint was games like Railroad Ink. But again, it's more route building as opposed to pick-up and deliver. And you're making your own thing, so you're using the common dice role and the playing on your own board. But yeah, I wouldn't call that pick-up and deliver.
Dave Eng:
No. Yeah, I wouldn't either. All right, so is it on me for variations?
Brian Eng:
Yeah, it's on you. That's pretty much what I had for twists and variations. I know you said you went on a deep dive, so.
Dave Eng:
Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Eng:
Go for it. We can talk about what you found.
Dave Eng:
This is my last one, my last note. So mine is a twist I'd like to see is to bring an item to someone for a cooperative or competitive purpose. And I go back to the beginning here when I talk about Forbidden Desert as a cooperative game that has pick-up and deliver, because you all need to work together to bring together these items for this flying machine so you can all take off together. I kind of see this right now, and you brought this up too, Bri, with Brass Birmingham of creating the network and the goods that are necessary for the "next order to be fulfilled".
I've only played the game twice, but the first time I played, I saw that in later stages, you need beer to deliver. So I was like, "Okay, I have the best positioning right now to make some beer and I'm going to put some beer on the board because it looks like people need that later in the game." And that's what I did. So I think that, and you described Brass Birmingham the same way of where it's kind of semi-cooperative because you need other people's routes to be built out in order to you to deliver something.
Brian Eng:
What was it? Reluctant cooperative.
Dave Eng:
Cooperation?
Brian Eng:
Was reluctantly cooperative.
Dave Eng:
Yeah, yeah. It's like you want to help other people-
Brian Eng:
Because you kind of have to.
Dave Eng:
... the least amount, right?
Brian Eng:
Yes.
Dave Eng:
But help you more.
Brian Eng:
Yes. Yes.
Dave Eng:
I would like to see more games like that, because I think that's a really cool decision space to make decisions in.
Brian Eng:
Yeah. I liked that as well because it's not as hostile for people that don't like the take thats, but it's still very... I consider Brass to be very competitive still.
Dave Eng:
Yeah. Yeah. It's a great game. I'm glad I got to play it.
Brian Eng:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think the only challenge really is that it can be very front loaded for people to learn. It feels like it's going to be really heavy. And I will say the strategy can be a little brain burny. But I enjoy that one a lot.
Dave Eng:
The first time I played, I didn't really concentrate on making the best decision. I was just like, "What are some good decisions I can make right now?" and then selecting one of those decisions and just committing to it. Because I was like, "This is the first time I'm playing. I'm going to make mistakes."
Brian Eng:
Yeah. Yeah.
Dave Eng:
All right, those are my... That's my last twist and variation, Bri. Anything for you?
Brian Eng:
Nope, that's all for me. And actually, I didn't do too much on evolution again because I know you had done a deep dive here. So I don't know if you want to lead off-
Dave Eng:
On evolution?
Brian Eng:
... the segment of evolution.
Dave Eng:
I would just say that I really like this mechanic. I talked about some twists and variations that I'd like to see. We talked about Air Sloop, which is a game I designed and Brian co-developed with me. I like it. I'd like to see it in other games. I'd like to see some variations on it. I don't really have a quiz on it, other than the fact that like, "Hey, these are pick-up and deliver games. We played a bunch of these." We cited a lot in this episode.
Brian Eng:
Yeah, we definitely did.
Dave Eng:
I see myself continuing to play this into the future, and I just hope that it can be iterated on because I think it has a lot of potential to do some cool things with it.
Brian Eng:
Yeah. If someone asks me to think about mechanics that I enjoy, I don't know if I generally think of pick-up and deliver. But after going through the research for this episode, it's like I generally do like this mechanic in most games. It's just, it doesn't always have to be the primary mechanic, but... Again, it's simple and it feels good to just, "I got to take this thing and I got to bring it over there and I can do this stuff on the way, or I can block this other guy, or I can steal his stuff," or whatever it is. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I'm sure it's a staple and here to stay, so I'm not too concerned. I'd like to see it continue to be used in interesting ways.
Dave Eng:
Exactly. Cool. Should we close it out?
Brian Eng:
All right. Yeah. Well, I think that's it for this one. So listeners, I hope we picked up your day and delivered some entertainment. That wraps up our pick-up and deliver episode of AP Table Talk. If you'd like to hear more content like this, please be sure to subscribe. You can also check out more of our content, projects and other information about us at www.universityxp.com.
Dave Eng:
Thanks for joining us. We'd also love if you take some time to rate the show. We live to lift others with learning. So if you found this episode useful, consider sharing it with someone who could also benefit. Until next time, Game On!
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Cite this Episode:
Eng, D. & Eng, B. (Hosts). (2023, August 13). AP Table Talk Pickup and Deliver. (No. 92) [Audio podcast episode]. Experience Points. University XP. https://www.universityxp.com/podcast/92
Internal Ref: UXPMRXJQM86D