Episode 168 Gijs van Bilsen on Live Action Learning and LARPs
Gijs van Bilsen on Live Action Learning and LARPs
Episode Summary:
This episode of Experience Points features Gijs van Bilsen, founder of the Live Action Learning Institute, who shares how live-action role-playing (LARP) can transform imagination into a powerful tool for personal and professional growth. Gijs explains how stepping into fictional but recognizable scenarios allows people to safely practice skills like leadership, spontaneity, and confidence. Drawing on examples from corporate trainings and his own life, he introduces the Think, Shape, Feel, Do framework; a method for summoning the version of yourself you most want to embody. Gijs also unpacks the concept of "bleed," where qualities from a played character spill into everyday behavior, offering lasting change. Through practical demonstration and storytelling, he invites listeners to see imagination not as a gift, but as a skill that sparks curiosity, deepens empathy, and drives real-world transformation.
Gijs van Bilsen
he/him/his
Keynote Speaker & Founder
Live Action Learning Institute
Gijs van Bilsen is a keynote speaker on the power of imagination and the founder of the Live Action Learning Institute, where they develop a method that lets people learn by stepping into new roles and perspectives. He has designed interactive learning experiences for universities, governments, and international organizations such as the United Nations. In his talks, Gijs shows audiences how imagination can be trained as a skill. A skill that fuels curiosity, empathy, and personal growth.
(LinkedIn): https://www.linkedin.com/in/gijsvanbilsen/
(Facebook): https://www.facebook.com/gijs.vanbilsen/
(Website): www.gijsvanbilsen.com
(Other): www.liveactionlearning.com
[Dave Eng] (0:00 - 0:57)
Hi, and welcome to Experience Points by University XP. On Experience Points, we explore different ways we can learn from games. I'm your host, Dave Eng, from Games Based Learning by University XP.
Find out more by going to www.universityxp.com. On today's episode, we'll learn from Gijs van Bilsen. Gijs van Bilsen turns imagination into action through live action role-playing, was a keynote speaker and founder of the Live Action Learning Institute. He designs immersive LARP-based experiences for organizations, universities, governments, and the United Nations, helping people step into new roles and perspectives. Because imagination isn't just a gift, it's a trainable skill that sparks curiosity, deepens empathy, and drives real-world growth. Gijs, welcome to the show!
[Gijs van Bilsen] (0:58 - 1:10)
Thank you very much, Dave. Thank you for taking the difficult step of pronouncing my name correctly. Let's go with the English version. You can just call me Guys, as in, “Hey Guys!,” and I will listen to that.
[Dave Eng] (1:11 - 1:53)
Excellent. Well, thank you, Gijs, for being on the show. I do try to pronounce everyone's names to the best of my ability. So, I appreciate you being here, spending your time sharing your knowledge and expertise with us today. And I'm just glad to have you here.
[Gijs van Bilsen]
Thank you. Me too.
[Dave Eng]
All right. So, with that being said, I wanted to jump into our very first question. Because we talked a lot about this in our pre-episode recording meeting, and just overall your work with imagination as a skill. When we discussed this originally, you said you framed imagination as something people can actively train, often through live-action role-playing, LARPs, L-A-R-P. So what does that actually look like in practice beyond just, quote-unquote, being creative?
[Gijs van Bilsen] (1:55 - 5:55)
Well, imagination is basically just practicing something before you actually do it. That is what imagination is. There was this really interesting scientific research that showed that if you imagine that you are weightlifting, so not actually doing it, just in your head, imagining it, that you actually do become stronger.
You are able to lift more after just imagining that you are weightlifting. And that's what we do. We really help people imagine the skills that they want to learn.
Those skills that you have to experience to actually learn, like listening, or being extroverted, or being a good leader. And that's how we use imagination as a skill. And in our keynote, that's called Imagine the Future, we do just that.
We use that for people to make different versions of themselves. But if we give a longer training, then we can also go a bit into LARPing. We create fictional but recognizable contexts that act as a safe space for people to find those skills and work with them.
So, for example, let me give you two examples. One is from our deluxe four-day leadership training. And this was a manager, and she wanted to become more spontaneous.
And she thought that was going to be like, oh, no, then I have to act as if I'm very extroverted. And it's going to cost me so much energy. And please can I have a room by myself because it's going to cost me so much energy that I don't know if I can do that for so long.
And actually, when she did try that out and she got a character that she played in our training, and the character was very spontaneous and impulsive. She, halfway through, she went up to us and said, “this is amazing!” It is not costing me any energy whatsoever because I'm just flowing with whatever comes up into my mind.
And I'm not busy with checking in with everyone all of the time, which is what I normally do. And in this way, she imagined a different character that was able to do what she found difficult. But because she did it a bit longer and in a safe space, not the actual world, but a fictional world to recreate it, she found how she could do it in a way that helped her.
And the other one is an interesting guy as well. He did a shorter thing with us, like a one-hour demo. And he said, I'm a sales professional, but I'm also very introverted.
I have to do sales as part of my job, but I'm very introverted. And I want to see how my extroverted version of myself, my charming, creative, extroverted version of myself, how that looks. And at one point, we were playing a neighborhood planning committee.
They were planning like the neighborhood party. That was the fictional story, very recognizable. At one point, he was standing in a bar because we had a location with an actual bar, an actual supermarket, and he was just like juggling with balls that he found somewhere.
And he was entertaining everyone. And he said, yes, this is my version, my extroverted version. It's called Robbie the Entertainer.
And what he now does every time that he drives to a sales meeting, the last thing he puts up in his car before he gets out and goes to the meeting is Let Me Entertain You by Robbie Williams. And with that energy, he then goes in and wows his clients. And these are the two things, like two ways that we say that we have seen people like use their imagination to practice something and find it within themselves how they could do it.
[Dave Eng] (5:57 - 6:28)
And I think that is really interesting and exciting. And I wanted to ask you the follow up question in that I know we led off with the question about imagination and developing that. And really, it's about like with gameplay, like the magic circle of existing in this world that is not real.
It has its own rules, and you can set your own expectations. But what I wanted to know was, do you feel that a lot of the people you've worked with in the past are really surprised by how much they can accomplish if they just imagine a little bit, if they just embrace play?
[Gijs van Bilsen] (6:28 - 7:09)
Yeah, it's very amazing. We've actually I had one keynote recently and that was that was the second year I did that. And one person came up to me afterwards and she was actually in tears saying like, you've changed my life because I like I have found like the bravery within me that I know it's there because I use that also in a lot of sometimes and I know I can be brave, but I never thought I could take that bravery with me into my everyday life.
And while she was saying that and how it changed her life, she just like started crying. I was like, wow, OK, wow.
[Dave Eng] (7:10 - 8:05)
Wow. That's a really powerful story. I appreciate you sharing with me. And I think that this whole aspect of imagination, interactivity and play is really useful. And I know that when you reached out to me originally, we were talking about LARPing and live action role playing. But during our pre-interview meeting, we actually went through a demo.
And I think that a lot of the audience is actually going to get a lot out of this because in past episodes of Experience Points, we talked about the work that you do. But in this instance, we're actually going to go through a demo. So most people associate LARPs, live action role playing with like games and hobbies, which is adequate and I think accurate.
But what makes it viable or risky in professional environments? And then can you walk us through a short real time exercise like we did in our pre-interview meeting to show us how this actually works in practice?
[Gijs van Bilsen] (8:06 - 10:31)
Yes, let's do that. So first of all, about what LARP is and what people are associated with, most people know LARP as a hobby to act out mainly like fantasy settings, you know, elves and wizards in the forest. But what LARP actually is, is it's an improvised immersive play without an audience.
And you can do that in any kind of setting. Like you can actually LARP an office and you can LARP everyday occurrences. And it's as simple as acting out a situation without worrying about the audience.
So, we normally, sometimes I even say like the LARPs that we do for professionally, they're probably boring. We don't go off as slay dragons. We don't step into galactic cruisers.
It might just look like an everyday office. We do, of course, we make it interesting and we make sure that something happens, but it's recognizable for the people there. Because what we want to learn is for them to see and find that version of themselves.
So that's also like the short exercise that we that we can boil LARP into. And actually, we don't call it LARP where we go into corporate settings or governmental settings. We call it live action learning.
And then we say like, oh, it's action learning, but we will do it live. And for people who know LARP, of course, they go like live action. Hey, I've heard of live action roleplay.
But it's just like a cheeky way of you. We are serious, very serious about playing. You don't want to scare away people.
But at the same time, we do want people to have a really nice experience. So, let's do that together with you. And the audience who's listening can do this with you.
So, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions and you're going to answer for you. But for people listening, they can answer that for themselves and then see how that works for them. Because basically we boiled learning from LARP, the essence of it.
We boiled it down to four words. Think, shape, feel and do. And we're going to see Dave to find a version of you that has a quality that you know that you have inside of you somewhere, but that for you might be difficult to get out at any given time.
So, something that you would like to have more. What quality would that be?
[Dave Eng] (10:32 - 10:53)
OK, for this, I would say that I had to really test myself this past weekend. It's to be more gregarious in social settings. So, I would say that naturally I'm an introverted person.
So, it takes a lot of effort for me to be talkative and gregarious and really talk about me and what I do and my work and my interest in like a social environment. So, I want to do that.
[Gijs van Bilsen] (10:54 - 11:36)
Nice. So, we're going to work on the gregarious on the talkative Dave. So, we'll see what the talkative Dave looks like and anyone listening answer that question for you.
And whenever Dave and I talk about the talkative versions, you just exchange that for the version that you want to learn from yourself. So first up, Dave, then I'd like you to think back. And maybe it was even this weekend, I should say, to I would like you to think back to a time, a situation where you did manage, where you were gregarious, where you were talkative, where you just you found yourself just jabbering on and felt and felt really good about that.
Can you take yourself back? Think back at a time where you were doing that.
[Dave Eng] (11:37 - 11:39)
Yeah, I'm thinking about it. Do you want me to describe it right now?
[Gijs van Bilsen] (11:40 - 11:41)
Yes, for the podcast. Yes, go ahead.
[Dave Eng] (11:42 - 12:31)
OK, so I'm thinking back to a time when I was, I was at the beach with my wife and some of her close friends, and they were asking me about at the time I was working in higher education. So, they're asking me about the state of higher education in the US. And it was something I worked in.
I cared very passionately about and how the university system and college system in the United States was set up. And I was able to just talk at length. And they asked me follow up questions about their own kids and preparing them for university and college when they're ready for it.
And I was just I would say I was in a flow state. I was able to answer their questions succinctly and I was able to answer it empathetically and provide insight on things that they didn't even know that they asked for.
[Gijs van Bilsen] (12:33 - 13:05)
Nice. Oh, I can imagine also just the environment around like at the beach and then these people listening to you and you feeling that, oh, yes, I'm like my words are reaching someone and I see their eyes lighting up. And what did it look like?
Because this was the first part, like think. So, let's go to the second word, which is shaped. How were you standing, sitting, moving?
What shapes did you did your body have? What posture did you have in that time?
[Dave Eng] (13:06 - 14:07)
Well, we since we were at the beach at the time, we were all it was all the adults. The kids were playing in the water, but all of the adults were sitting around in like a half circle. And I was in a beach chair and it's very low.
But at the same time, since everyone else was at the beach chair and it was very low, it was a very hot day, I remember. So, we had beach umbrellas, but we didn't have enough for all of the adults. We were just we were huddled together very close in a half circle.
And then someone asked me a question about higher education and I started answering it. And then other people asked me follow up questions. And I was able to remember being at the I was in the middle of the half circle.
So, I was able to answer the first person's question, but realize that other people were also interested in my answer. So, I was trying to make eye contact with everyone else in the group that was interested in hearing my answer. And I remember being able to answer the very first question very fluidly and succinctly and then answer the next follow up question the same way and then the next follow up question the same way.
And I just remember being on a roll for several minutes where I felt really in the zone in that in that flow state.
[Gijs van Bilsen] (14:07 - 14:33)
Nice. So, you were you were sitting and what I hear is that you make eye contact with everyone, just trying to see, OK, so what is the physical action that you're going through, which is also maybe like turning towards the different people and seeing them. And if you would have to summon that right now, if you have to see how would I sit right now?
I can't see you. So, you have to describe it a bit. How would you sit right now if you were the talkative version of yourself?
[Dave Eng] (14:33 - 15:17)
I would sit, I would not sit with my back on the chair, because I remember specifically when I was getting really interested in the conversation, I would kind of intertwine my fingers in both my hands in front of me and rest them in between my knees and lean forward a little bit. And through leaning forward, I would be speaking directly to the person that might have asked me the last question. But at the same time, because I was also aware that other people were listening, I would just take the time to pivot my head and make eye contact briefly, but meaningfully with other people in our group that were also listening.
So, it would be me sitting with my hands clasped together, leaning forward slightly, but making sure that I am maintaining eye contact regularly with everyone else in the group.
[Gijs van Bilsen] (15:18 - 16:24)
Oh, wonderful, wonderful. Now, you have already you have several things in here that help you, like leaning forward. That's usually a sign of being engaged.
And then having your hands in front of you means like, oh, so you're connecting and you have them free to use when you're when you're talking. And then again, with the eye contact. So that is the shape that you can that you now have from that situation and from trying it on now that the next time that you want to be talkative, you can see, hey, can I put my body into that shape or and use that then to find that talkative version of yourself?
And again, for the people listening, if it's not talkative, then try out. If it's relaxed, maybe it is feeling your back in the chair. And if it’s powerful, maybe you have like a bit of a fist instead of a hand.
So, it's whatever you want for your quality, how you shape your own body. So, then we move on to the third one. And I think you talked a bit around already about the state that you were in, but how did it feel?
Because the shaping is what happens outside and what we can see, but what happens inside of you, what others can't see, but what you definitely felt.
[Dave Eng] (16:26 - 17:08)
I felt like it was a beach day, so it was very hot. We're underneath all of the umbrellas, but I felt like a different type of warmth, like normally when you're outside and it's a hot summer day, you may be sweating because it's just very hot. But for me, I specifically remember like there was a warmth in me, but it was like a warmth in the like my upper chest area, like the kind of warmth that you get when you are talking for an extended period of time.
And I was talking, but it was like a good warmth. It was something that like I get an opportunity right now to talk about something that I'm very passionate about and knowledgeable about. And I just felt very good.
It made me want to keep talking more about it as people are asking me more follow up questions.
[Gijs van Bilsen] (17:10 - 18:07)
Yeah, so that warmth would even have been there on like if it was a cold, stormy night, like the beach had nothing to do with it. That feeling inside of you, that's what you got. So that's also what you can look for.
Sometimes the feeling is like a result of you doing the thing. But usually there's also like a feeling that you can look for to help you to help you do the thing, to make it easier. So, try and look for that feeling and shape yourself right now into that posture.
And then we can go to the final thing, which is do. So, we have think, shape, feel and do. And the final thing is do and have one little activity which can be maybe a sentence or a movement, or maybe it's I speak a bit louder.
That like one little activity that you can agree on yourself that will help you be that talkative version of yourself. What would that one little activity be? The one thing you do?
[Dave Eng] (18:08 - 18:49)
I would say that it would be, not that I think about it and we have it as part of this discussion, this role play, is that the aspect of leading forward, of really connecting with other people, not just listening, not just waiting for my turn to speak, but really connecting and trying to determine what is the, I've asked this question before, what is the reason for our conversation? Is it just to gather information? Is it just to fulfill an awkward silence?
But in this case, it is to honestly and actively answer some person's question, be able to share some of my knowledge and being able to be a significant and useful resource for someone else.
[Gijs van Bilsen] (18:49 - 20:35)
Yeah. Nice. So, it's like you said, that really that connection, that is the action.
And maybe just as a word, connection is a bit vague, but when I hear you speak, for you it is an activity of connection, and you even have questions that you ask to make that easier. So now that you have those four things, you can think back on that moment and summon that moment again. You know how to shape your posture, you know how to feel, like to find that warmth inside of you and then think, oh, yes, I have it.
And you know that you can connect and maybe even you have a couple of questions that you can use in order to really connect with people. And if you combine all four of those, then you have the talkative, the gregarious version of Dave. Then you have talkative Dave.
And by practicing that a couple of times, it will become easier and easier to recognize it and to go into it, to summon that any time that you need it. When you are in a room and you feel yourself maybe like going back a bit towards the wall and just, no, let me be a wallflower. And you're like, no, I don't want to be a wallflower today.
Today I will be the talkative Dave. Then you know, oh, I can summon it in this way and lean forward, connect with people, feel the warmth and start talking how you want to be. And that's basically how we try and condense being a different character, which you do in LARP.
Not even if you want to be a different character, but just like shape that version of yourself, that version, that talkative version of you by thinking, shaping, feeling and doing and then summoning in whatever you need it.
[Dave Eng] (20:35 - 21:28)
I see. All right. Thank you for sharing. And I appreciate the demo. This is the second time that Gijs and I have run through this demo. This second one was a little bit different from the first one.
I chose a different situation here. But one thing that I wanted to bring up and I'm going to go into our third and last question here is we discussed this before and I'd written about this when I was talking about role playing games, but it's the concept of bleed, character bleed. And I also want to talk a little bit about skepticism for some people that may be new to this process.
So, can you explain the concept of bleed? Because I've talked about it, but I'd like to hear more about it from your perspective, the concept of bleed in LARP and why it matters for learning development. And, you know, for someone who's skeptical of this approach, what's the simplest way to demonstrate this value?
Like we've gone through the exercise, but if you had to demonstrate its value to someone else and couldn't go through the exercise, what would you do in order to show that?
[Gijs van Bilsen] (21:30 - 27:49)
Yeah, yeah, because the bleed, so bleed for those not familiar, it's a term used for the overflowing of elements between a character that you're playing and the player. So, between you as a person, basically what it says, if you play a character and you play that in a certain way, then some of that will seep through into your own behavior or personality. And that might not last for very long, but if you play the character for a couple of days, which is usually what happens at a LARP, it can stick around for a bit.
And actually, we use this on purpose when we do live action learning. Basically, what you've just done in the exercise is you made a talkative Dave, which is somehow a character, but we like to call it the version of yourself that you have shaped. And by doing that, you are able to summon it.
But also, it leads true to you then, because it's very close to you. So the bleed between a version of you and you is very close by, and the bleed between a character that you are playing and you, that's a bit further removed, which gives you the opportunity or alibi, as we say, to try out different stuff that is something that you normally wouldn't do, then see how that works for you. And then that spills over or flows over into you.
And basically, this also occurs in everyday life. For example, if you have children and like in the morning, they're not listening to you, like they're making a mess of their breakfast and they have to like get out and go to school and you have to be a bit strict, you know, and there's one of those mornings and come on. And then maybe like you arrive at work a bit later when they finally like you got them out of school and you might find yourself feeling a bit more directive in the leadership style than you would otherwise have, because basically your role of that morning of being the strict parent is bleeding over in your role of being a leader at your work.
And what we do is we try to really design for these effects and for you to purposely and positively shape those versions of you that you can then have bleed over into who you actually want to be. And for those skeptical. First of all, we don't mind people being skeptical also in our trainings, like you're very welcome to be skeptical.
You're also very welcome to like observe. And we give so many ways of people to observe a bit if they want that in the end, everybody participates because they know, oh, if I want to, I can step out. There's room for my skepticism, which is because I feel that the trainer gives me room for my skepticism.
I will also give myself permission to try this thing out. And usually when they try that out, the skepticism vanishes. But I can give you one example, which I normally do is to share like how actually why do you why I even started the Life Action Learning Institute?
And that's because I played a LARP and within that LARP, I found. A different, different source of energy within me, I'm very enthusiastic, as you hopefully have become aware as a listener that this is my energy, but I played a LARP and in that LARP, I played Kai, which was a very calm, powerful, collected character. He was like this.
And by playing him, by playing him for a weekend, I found out within myself was very surprised that I had that version inside of me. And a couple of weeks later, I was hiking and I was hiking in the Swiss Alps and we were hiking and we were in a gorge, like a deep, deep valley. And I encountered a bridge.
A bridge that was holed up by one cable and on the bottom was, you know, like the see through metal rasters. So, you could just see 300 meters into the deep. And again, one cable, it was hanging on one cable.
I'm afraid of heights and maybe some people even listening to this might already feel that. And I was like; “I don't want to get over this. There's also like it was a two and a half hour trip back along like slippery slopes up like the hills.”
I couldn’t, I couldn't go back. I had to cross that bridge. I was like, OK, I just ran like screaming to the other side and I was standing there and I was just panting.
And then I thought, you know what? Wait, wait. I had that guy and I had a calm, collective hour.
So, I summoned that that that character. And I walked back onto that bridge, and I stood there for 20 minutes. Just standing there, even looking down.
And I was like, this is. This is amazing. I've done something that was just made for entertainment.
It was just a weekend with a couple of friends who did a lot of. Nothing educational about it, but through that experience, I have now gotten the tools to combat my own fear of heights. And now imagine what if we actually start thinking about it in an educational way for professional development?
How strong would that be? And that's usually what I tell to skeptical people like I you don't have to use it to get rid of your fear of heights, but you might just use it to be a better listener if you want that or to be a bit more positive if you want that. And usually that's what gets them.
You know what? I want to try. I want to see.
[Dave Eng] (27:51 - 28:08)
Wow. Thank you Gijs for sharing. I realize that, you know, we may not always be able to have like a 50% improvement or 100% improvement, but if we can just use the tools that we have available and people that such as yourself to just improve a little bit, I think it's worth it.
So thank you for sharing your story. I appreciate it.
[Gijs van Bilsen] (28:09 - 28:11)
You're very welcome. I appreciate it for being here.
[Dave Eng] (28:12 - 28:17)
So Gijs, thank you for joining us today. Where can people go to find out more about you and your work online?
[Gijs van Bilsen] (28:19 - 28:49)
Yes, so if you want to learn more about the Live Action Learning Institute, go to www.liveactionlearning.com and that's live with a V. And if you're interested in booking me as a keynote speaker about imagining the future where I bring positivity and we do this exercise also with the entire group. Then go to Gijs van Bilsen.
So G-I-J-S-V-A-N-B-I-L-S-E-N dot com. And that's where you find me as a keynote speaker.
[Dave Eng] (28:50 - 28:57)
Excellent. Thank you Gijs. I will make sure to include all those links in the references and show notes.
So thank you for sharing that.
[Gijs van Bilsen] (28:57 - 28:58)
Thank you.
[Dave Eng] (29:00 - 30:00)
I hope you found this episode useful. If you'd like to learn more than a great place to start is with my free course on gamification. You can sign up for it at www.universityxp.com/gamification. You can also get a full transcript of this episode, including links to references in the description or show notes. Thanks for joining us. Again, I'm your host Dave Eng from Games Based Learning by University XP.
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Cite this Episode
Eng, D. (Host). (2026, July 12). Gijs van Bilsen on Live Action Learning and LARPs. (No. 168) [Audio podcast episode]. Experience Points. University XP. https://www.universityxp.com/podcast/168
Internal Ref: UXPGTG71SV9P
References
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Eng, D. (2020, July 9). What is the "magic circle?" University XP. Retrieved May 28, 2026, from https://www.universityxp.com/blog/2020/7/9/what-is-the-magic-circle
Eng, D. (2020, October 1). What makes a good rule book? University XP. Retrieved May 28, 2026, from https://www.universityxp.com/blog/2020/10/1/what-makes-a-good-rule-book
Robbie Williams. (2022, September 9). Robbie Williams - Let me entertain you (XXV - Official audio) [Video]. YouTube. https://youtu.be/kKbcAcLLmGY
Seattle by Night Mods. (2020, January 9). What is bleed? Medium. https://medium.com/@sbnbusinessmods/what-is-bleed-85567dd3e526
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