Episode 149 Josefine Schwarzer Applied Games and Mental Health
Josefine Schwarzer Applied Games and Mental Health
Episode Summary
In this episode of Experience Points, Dave Eng interviews Josefine Schwarzer, a German occupational therapist exploring how tabletop RPGs and LARPs support mental health. Josefine shares how role-play creates safe, expressive spaces that boost self-esteem and break from anxiety. She recounts clients using fantasy roles to assert themselves and even physical rehab sessions transformed into Minecraft sword battles. Together, they discuss “bleed,” storytelling’s power to build empathy, and how shared narratives deepen therapeutic bonds. Josefine highlights the inclusive LARP community and encourages playful approaches in therapy. The episode reveals games’ unique ability to connect, heal, and inspire personal growth.
Josefine Schwarzer
she/her/hers
Occupational Therapist, Social Worker and Play Educator
Ernst-Abbe-Hochschule, Jena, Germany
Josefine.Schwarzer@stud.eah-jena.de
Josefine Schwarzer is a trained occupational therapist, studied educational science/psychology and recently started her master degree in Media- and Gaming Pedagogy. In her role as an occupational therapist, as well as a caregiver, she has worked primarily with adults, families, and the mentally ill for approximately 10 years. Both in outpatient practice settings, as well as within inpatient residential settings. In this field of work, she has been increasingly focusing on play pedagogical approaches for about 6 years, developing concepts for the application of social games in client-centered work with children, families and people with mental illness.
(LinkedIn): https://www.linkedin.com/in/josefine-schwarzer-115513253
(Facebook): https://m.facebook.com/josefine.schwarzer/
Dave Eng:
Hi, and welcome to Experience Points by University XP. On Experience Points we explore different ways we can learn from games. I'm your host Dave Eng from Games-Based Learning by University XP. Find out more at www.universityxp.com. On today's episode, we'll learn from Josefine Schwarzer. Josefine is a German occupational therapist with 10 years of experience supporting families and individuals with mental health needs, with a background in psychology and education, and now studying media and gaming pedagogy, she focuses on using play and social games as meaningful tools in therapeutic work. Josefine, welcome to the show.
Josefine Schwarzer:
Hey, nice to be here. This is really some great way to end my week and start into my evening.
Dave Eng:
Great, great. I'm glad to have you here on the show. And again, I asked you here originally because of your presentation at the past Games-Based Learning Virtual Conference because you talked a lot about using tabletop role-playing games for mental health needs. So I want to start out the very first question and expand it a little bit about tabletop role-playing games, TTRPGs and LARPs, live action role-playing games. So what drew you originally to tabletop role-playing games and live action role-playing games as therapeutic tools, and was there a specific moment or experience that made it click for you? And then the third part here is how do you see them building on each other, especially when working on behavior, self-esteem and personal development?
Josefine Schwarzer:
Okay, so there wasn't a super specific moment, but I grew up with games my whole life. And then finally when I grew older, I learned there was a lot more games than just Monopoly or Mensch ärgere Dich nicht. I guess in English, it's Ludo. And then there was a specific moment when I was at our local gaming store with my husband. And by accident, we ran into our role master by this. And I vividly remember our first few sessions with him and especially my character, she was a halfling and there was this scene where all of our other groups trying to fight some spider or something, and I was just there rolling down the hill trying to train my pet pig.
The thing is, normally I'm more of a very shy person who was often scared to express my feelings and just do the things I love without feeling weird about doing these things. And yeah, this was just the moment when I realized when we were in game, I can be still me, but expressing myself and it is totally okay to be weird and rolling down the hill with your pet pig because everything is better with a pet pig. And there was... Yeah, I felt really good for doing this and it wasn't like, oh yeah, I do this. Let's do this with some clients. It just takes some time more. But when you then go back to your work and you see your clients and they also have the same problems as yourself just dealing with entity and something like this and you think maybe you should try roll down the hill with your pet pig.
Yeah. So this was really some kind of point where I get, okay, this is a way to express yourself but be in a safe space. And also, the thing is, I always love playing games. And the thing is, when you work with people, especially with ones who have problems with their self or in their life or something like this, you really need to love what you're doing because when you are not showing how much you care about what you're doing right now with them, you don't having some good relationship level and especially when working with mental health, it's so much about this relationship point because mostly those people know that they are outside of the society. They almost deal with entity and with not getting accepted from some point. And then you are there and you are loving the weirdness that you do and you show them it's totally fine to be also some weird people around here and they accept you the way you do.
And I guess this is the biggest point where it came to myself and I realized I need to play more with people because it's so much fun and it also helps to break out of your life for just a moment, especially when you have some depressions or again, anxiety or something. And always your mind is circling about the same things and thinking about how everything is wrong or false or something like this. You just need the break from all this. And what is better than just playing a game and being part of a story that you love of a world that you know from your books or something like this where you want to express yourself.
Dave Eng:
All right. I think that would be... I have this mental image of you right now, Josefine, playing for the first time, rolling and playing with this pig. And I think that one of the elements about games that a lot of people tend to use specifically if it's in a therapy situation is that it's something that can be compartmentalized away from the reality of the world that we exist in and that I guess in therapeutic situations as well as in games, we are creating this new magic circle, like imaginary space in which we can be someone different. And I think that your story really emphasizes that, the fact that when you're playing, you don't necessarily have to be you. And because you're not, you have less of a bias in order to address different challenges that may be occurring in your personal life, your work life or anything else. So thanks for sharing that, Josefine. I appreciate it.
Josefine Schwarzer:
Yeah, sure. The thing is you always have some small portions of you in yourself and your characters. They're not always those big portions, but some small parts of your character are also you. And we talk about this as bleeding in and bleeding out. So this really is a use, especially when you go in the therapeutic sessions or in the pedagogy sessions.
Dave Eng:
Great, thank you. I remember writing about that when I was doing some research on specifically role-playing games, but I think your insight brings me into the second question here for breakthroughs in gameplay. And you talked about individual players bleeding in some of the characteristics of themselves into the characters and then vice versa, those characters bleeding out some of those characteristics into the individual player. But I want to know, can you share a story again without naming names, of course, to protect patient privacy. We're participating in a story, whether it's a tabletop RPG or a LARP led to a breakthrough moment for someone, maybe something unexpected emotional or a glimpse of real change, any story that you can share?
Josefine Schwarzer:
Yeah, there are actually two stories. One for the TTRPG and one for the LARP thing. First for the TTRPG, there is a client I have, some young man and he's really nice, but mostly he's really quiet. Also, have, like again I said, some entities, how the world will see him and how they react to him because he has some special needs and sure, there are always something where you think about yourself and how others are seeing you. And when he's in our rooms, you mostly even don't see or hear him because he doesn't want to be seen. And we started with our first session of playing D&D and of course I knew he would choose this character. He chooses an Orc Barbarian.
And the first part of this was some classic introduction. They should come to the tavern. And then their tavern guy told them about some strange things going in around this town. And there is a girl who's lost and they come there. They heard about the quest and there were some farmer looking just a little bit strangely of him because I mean, he's an Orc Barbarian. Every normal human would look like, "Oh, what are you?" And he wanted to talk to the farmers because get some information about his quest and he got to the table and I introduced him to the farmer and saying, "Yeah, he looks like..." "Oh, what do you want here?" At this moment, I never expected it. He smashed on the table and yelled, "No, no, no, no, no. You don't talk to me like this." And I was like, "Whoa, where's this came from?"
And we talked about this, how he can transfer this through daily life and also, it's a lot better in saying no, and I am not quite sure if this was the moment where it changed everything, but from this time on, he definitely did some kind of working through his identity and he came out more of himself a lot from this time to now. Yeah. That's about the TTRPG thing.
The LARP thing is really, again, a personal story because when I started with LARP, there was my, I guess my second LARP where played a character, a girl, and some, we called it our glitter squad because it was some kind of rich bitches going on a spaceship and she was a nice person, but she has this attitude of, "Okay. Come on. Bring me some water." And when I go to my work, I always, or I mostly see one man, and I always thought, "Are you a doppelganger of a colleague of my husband?" But of course, I'm too shy to ask if he is this one or maybe another. Then there was in summer this moment where I stood next to him waiting on my train to go home and I was like, oh God, I wanted to ask him so badly, but I can't do this.
And then I remembered, oh, I was Eulalia Mendez. And she would totally just ask him what his name is and where he works or something like this. And then I thought about, okay, when I was Eulalia and I did play this character for a whole weekend and had this attitude and it was totally fine because nobody was there, it was like, "Oh, don't ask me such questions." I thought there is much different than sitting here on a train and being in spaceship. So yeah, what I need to say, I know his name. He is the doppelganger, but he's a really nice person that I sometimes see again when going home by train. And then I always think about, "Hey, I know you."
Dave Eng:
Great. Thank you for sharing. I know that again, you bring up the point of in a game, we don't necessarily have to be the same person that we are in real life. That first example you had with your client or patient in a tabletop role-playing game, how they were completely different as a character, specifically, I think that Orc Barbarian was a very bold choice. So I wanted to know where that story was going. And then also with your LARP example as well as being able to empathize and connect with a fictional character and how that carries over into your actual character yourself in your real life. So great examples. Thanks for sharing.
Josefine Schwarzer:
Yeah, sure.
Dave Eng:
All right. I want to go into my last question here, and we talked a lot about characters, we talked about tabletop role-playing games and LARPs, and I want to talk a little bit more about the power of story because if I know anything about role-playing games, I know that there's many things are connected by a consistent narrative or a story going through it. So my question for you is instead of focusing on resistance or skepticism whenever it comes up with the use of tabletop role-playing games or live action role-playing games for therapeutic purposes, could you just talk about being part of a story, whether it's in a game or a role-play, and how that being part of a story can motivate clients or students or participants? And then if you have an example, maybe share how storytelling helps overcome hesitation and makes therapeutic or educational goals more accessible.
Josefine Schwarzer:
Yeah, the thing when I talk to people, they mostly think like, "Oh, yeah. This makes sense, but this is too hard to include into my lessons," or something like this. And the thing is, like you said, it's more about the narrative part and not about rolling some dice or something. And the thing is, also, besides doing the mental health stuff, I'm also a therapist for orthopedic stuff. So if you broke your wrist or something, I would dare to help you strengthen your muscles and fixing your joints and something like this. And again, there was this younger man still in school, but again, a little bit quiet and sure I could give him a dumbbell or doing some pushups for strengthening his muscles or what we did, we gave him a sword and let him fight against his Minecraft enemies because Minecraft was his favorite video game.
And yeah, come on. I mean, nothing gives you a better boost of your self-esteem than handling a sword. And then he thought out. And the thing is, just being part of the story and being in this example, being in this Minecraft world, feeling inside your world that you love was such a boost because it's like a safe space. You know about this. It's not about going to some place and having some kind of teacher or therapist or something like this who tells you to do stuff. It's just living in your world and doing the things you love.
And the thing is, as such a sword is really heavy, so it's a really good training device compared to a dumbbell or similar. Mostly, it's even better. And so he works on his story, his world and forgetting almost everything about pain or fear of breaking something again. So this really helps to, like I said before, take just a break from your life and just dream yourself away also, and this is so easy to include into your lessons or therapies or something like this, and also it connects yourself to your clients because you don't want to speak about your favorite movie or your favorite books or video games or something like this. And the thing is, again, when you speak with someone and the other part is hearing what you are saying and referring to it and being part of all this, this really makes you feel good. And then you're both connected and when you're connected, this is the first part of all therapeutic and pedagogic stuff that you both need to be on the same level and want to achieve the same goals for yourself.
And when you are part of the same story, this is connecting together. And this is like there was... I forget his name. You are in a shared space and you are sharing the same kind of secrets. Of course, nobody else in the world would explore the same story you two are doing at this moment, and this is bonding you together so much. And then it is easier to speak about bigger things in your life. I mean, sure, this was just a risk, but again, when you think about depression or something, there isn't always the point in therapy where you just to be really nice to the persons, there also need some moments where you need to say directly that something is wrong or whatever.
And what mostly happens is then your clients, they're going like a step back from you and feeling like, "Oh, no, they're speaking bad about me. I did something wrong." And you don't did something wrong. But it's just part of the thing that there are sometimes things you did that you should do a bit different. And when you have these connected relationships, you can easier talk about this and you can easier help to try to overcome it and then to be a specific character you want to play, which you want to laugh and just get those bleed in and bleed out thing again more.
Dave Eng:
All right. Thanks, Josefine. I know that part of your story that really resonates with me is specifically, again, you were talking about working with that young boy and needing to implement some sort of physical therapy measure, but I think the sword was a really great idea because if you had a choice, would you rather use a dumbbell or a kettlebell or a sword? And I think the sword comes with an inherent narrative property, especially if you're like a young boy because you can play with the sword. You can fence someone else, but it also has the added benefit of strength training that particular part of your body.
Josefine Schwarzer:
Yeah.
Dave Eng:
And then specifically what you said about creating like a narrative with each other. I think that's part of the beauty of a lot of role-playing games is that you're not only experiencing a narrative the same way that you would happen if you read a book together or watched a movie together, but with a role-playing game and specifically like LARPs, live action role-playing games, that you're all consistently and collaboratively and cooperatively creating that narrative together. And because you can do that, you're creating this new in-game reality for yourself and the rest of the players. And that's something that is really beautiful because it allows you to bond with others in a way that is totally unique to the situation.
Josefine Schwarzer:
Especially I really love the LARP community because I never experienced a more inclusive bubble to just be part of and just feel warmth and accepted.
Dave Eng:
Well, we are at the end of our time today, Josefine, so I'm going to close it out. Again, thank you for joining us today. I greatly appreciate you sharing everything. Where can people go to find out more about you?
Josefine Schwarzer:
I mean, I have some LinkedIn website or something. I don't have some real big website for now, especially if you're in Germany, come visit me in Jena. Yeah, if you want to connected, just write me on LinkedIn or something. Yeah.
Dave Eng:
Okay. I'll make sure to include your LinkedIn profile link in the episode notes for this episode.
Josefine Schwarzer:
Yeah, sure.
Dave Eng:
So thank you, Josefine. I appreciate it.
Josefine Schwarzer:
Same. It's great to be here.
Dave Eng:
I hope you found this episode useful. If you'd like to learn more, then a great place to start is my free course on gamification. You can sign up for it at www.universityxp.com/gamification. You can also get a full transcript of this episode, including links to references in the description or show notes. Thanks for joining us. Again, I'm your host, Dave Eng from Games-Based Learning by University XP. On Experience Points, we explore different ways we can learn from games. If you like this episode, please consider commenting, sharing and subscribing. Subscribing is absolutely free and ensures that you'll get the next episode of Experience Points delivered directly to you. I'd also love it if you took some time to rate the show. We live to lift others with learning. So if you found this episode useful, consider sharing it with someone who could also benefit. Also, make sure to visit University XP online at www.universityxp.com. University XP is also on Twitter and Bluesky as University XP and on Facebook and LinkedIn as University XP. Also, feel free to email me anytime. My email address is dave@universityxp.com. Game on!
Cite this Episode
Eng, D. (Host). (2025, October 19). Josefine Schwarzer Applied Games and Mental Health. (No. 149) [Audio podcast episode]. Experience Points. University XP. https://www.universityxp.com/podcast/149
Internal Ref: UXPN8KTKDP90
References
D&D Beyond. (n.d.). Orc – Monsters. Retrieved July 10, 2025, from https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/16972-orc
D&D Beyond. (n.d.). The Barbarian Class for Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) Fifth Edition (5e). Retrieved July 10, 2025, from https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/9-barbarian
Eng, D. (2019, August 13). Narratives, Toys, Puzzles, Games. University XP. Retrieved July 10, 2025, from https://www.universityxp.com/blog/2019/8/13/narratives-toys-puzzles-games
Eng, D. (2019, October 29). Gaming with Motivation. University XP. Retrieved July 10, 2025, from https://www.universityxp.com/blog/2019/10/29/gaming-with-motivation
Eng, D. (2020, July 9). What is the Magic Circle? University XP. Retrieved July 10, 2025, from http://www.universityxp.com/blog/2020/7/9/what-is-the-magic-circle
Eng, D. (2025, March 25). What are Role‑Playing Games? University XP. Retrieved July 10, 2025, from https://www.universityxp.com/blog/2025/3/24/what-are-role-playing-games
Seattle by Night Mods. (2020, January 9). What is Bleed? Medium. Retrieved July 10, 2025, from https://medium.com/@sbnbusinessmods/what-is-bleed-85567dd3e526